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GoldenSounds passes apparently ABX test for DACs (NOT Really)

KSTR

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It looked like you captured and averaged 16 frames?
Ah, no. The process was to run an 8192-pt. peak-holding FFT over the whole file. The offset for next analysed frame was 1/16th of the frame size, so 512 samples, for a huge overlap. Otherwise, because of the window function we could miss out peaks that are mostly outside the window, at the edges.
 

Thomas_A

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Seeing the graphs, I think it is "impossible" for IMD effects as well. The difference and levels are just way too small. One could perhaps try too boost the response 20-30 dB at 21-22 kHz to see if it becomes audible, and then give the blame for the headphone having a similar boost...
 

KSTR

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After maybe one, maybe two, maybe four (?) averages, you can easily see the spectral difference so that you know which filter you're playing through, and that's the time I was asking about.
Now I understand. When I run a real time 8k FFT in Adobe Audition while playing the file I can see the difference > 21kHz after the first second, once properly zoomed in.
 
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Jeromeof

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Seeing the graphs, I think it is "impossible" for IMD effects as well. The difference and levels are just way too small. One could perhaps try too boost the response 20-30 dB at 21-22 kHz to see if it becomes audible, and then give the blame for the headphone having a similar boost...
I think this is the key - a specific headphone with a crazy peak in that exact region - boosting this signal and then GS being in that 0.1% of individuals able to detect something in that region.
 

solderdude

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I see no crazy peaks between 20 and 22kHz in the Susvara I measured nor any resonances at those specific frequencies.
csd-susvara.png

Of course this is just my measurement and not Cameron's copy nor do we know what his pinna does at these frequencies.

The signals are very small and even when 120dB peaks are reached (which would require a huge amount of power for the very insensitive Susvara) then peaks in that part of the frequency range would reach about 50dB SPL... I reckon Cameron needs at least 90dB SPL to detect >20kHz continuous sine waves.
A question could be is that also needed with transients at those levels and is the fact that he can actually hear those frequencies (or rather the effect, it sounds like a 'pressure' and is not perceived as a tone) really the reason he got 18/20 and Sharur 10/10 at one specific part.

None of this explains the 'This DAC sounds so much better that I don't even need to do a blind test' effects.

Fascinating as this all may be even Cameron admitted the differences are so small it does not matter for enjoyment of music.
 
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Geert

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I think this is the key - a specific headphone...

And electronic music with very artifical high frequency clicks and ticks (by lack of a better name). I would like to see him repeat the test with a recording of real instruments.
 
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MacClintock

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And electronic music with very artifical high frequency clicks and ticks (by lack of a better name). I would like to see him repeat the test with a recording of real instruments.
There are many "real" instruments with high harmonics, not to start with the infamous cymbals...
 
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MacClintock

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I think this is the key - a specific headphone with a crazy peak in that exact region - boosting this signal and then GS being in that 0.1% of individuals able to detect something in that region.
Sharur, who apparently passed the test as well, used a LCD-5, which has good treble extension, but nothing crazy high as well.
 

solderdude

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Cameron went out of his way to keep it as scientific and verifiable as he could (my opinion).
He chose music because he thought it might give him the best chance to pull this off.
We should realize that he probably has been playing this game for a while now and only published because of the 18/20.
His conclusion is a bit silly and the test should at least be repeated (for science).

Truth is we don't know what made him reach 18/20 and Sharur 10/10 (on a specific tick).
Fact is these are young guys and hear more than the average audiophile.

Chances are with other recordings the 18/20 may not have been possible.
It is, however, clearly his intention to prove well measuring DACs can still sound different.
He has shown 'something' but not that well measuring DACs sound audible different, just that different filters can be told apart in a blind ABX test.
That is the only conclusion that can be drawn. Cameron has a long way to go to prove he can distinguish a DAVE from a cheap Topping with a 44.1 file in a test that is verified to be valid and assuming he is not out to fool us all.
 
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Ken Tajalli

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Chances are with other recordings the 18/20 may not have been possible.
It is, however, clearly his intention to prove well measuring DACs can still sound different.
He has shown 'something' but not that well measuring DACs sound audible different, just that different filters can be told apart in a blind ABX test.
That is the only conclusion that can be drawn. Cameron has a long way to go to prove he can distinguish a DAVE from a cheap Topping with a 44.1 file in a test that is verified to be valid and assuming he is not out to fool us all.
I agree completely.
Also I love this:
1715031912853.png

Time to put a get-out clause to that?? :)
 
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MacClintock

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Cameron went out of his way to keep it a scientific and verifiable as he could (my opinion).
He chose music because he thought it might give him the best chance to pull this off.
We should realize that he probably has been playing this game for a while now and only published because of the 18/20.
His conclusion is a bit silly and the test should at least be repeated (for science).

Truth is we don't know what made him reach 18/20 and Sharur 10/10 (on a specific tick).
Yes, up to now there is only the consensus that there are differences between these two files down to -45dB above 20 kHz. I struggle to believe that this could be audible.
It is, however, clearly his intention to prove well measuring DACs can still sound different.
Again, he did some proof of concept type of thing, but the differences are nowhere there where all the audiophile nonsense claims them to be, like bigger soundstage, liquid midrange, more "texture" or any of that.
He has shown 'something' but not that well measuring DACs sound audible different, just that different filters can be told apart in a blind ABX test.
That is the only conclusion that can be drawn. Cameron has a long way to go to prove he can distinguish a DAVE from a cheap Topping with a 44.1 file in a test that is verified to be valid and assuming he is not out to fool us all.
Since the Chord Dave has a filter very similar to this sharp one used, I woulnd´t doubt that he might be able to repeat this between two real DACs.
 

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I passed the Klippel distortion hearing tests with a score of -69 dB, which is the highest possible score. My strategy was to significantly increase the volume. This allowed me to hear the high order distortion harmonics that were otherwise masked by the auditory masking threshold of the fundamental. I believe the test tones were around 125 dB. Rapidly increasing and decreasing the volume also made it easier for me to detect distortion.

If there are differences at -46db, I think these differences are not very hard to hear.
 

Blumlein 88

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Yes, up to now there is only the consensus that there are differences between these two files down to -45dB above 20 kHz. I struggle to believe that this could be audible.

Again, he did some proof of concept type of thing, but the differences are nowhere there where all the audiophile nonsense claims them to be, like bigger soundstage, liquid midrange, more "texture" or any of that.

Since the Chord Dave has a filter very similar to this sharp one used, I woulnd´t doubt that he might be able to repeat this between two real DACs.
If this is due to filter response differences and his hearing, there is no qualitative difference in sound quality at a basic level vs cheap good DACs. Some of the cheap DACs have multiple filters as well. So is there a sound quality bonus of any kind vs his expensive DAC? I'm guessing no. I'm thinking if he had 96 khz source files he could not detect his DAC vs a $400 SMSL. What he did is impressive and appears he is being honest in all of this. Even he says in a couple years he may not hear the difference any longer. So this shows filters with different response at the edge of audibility can be heard. I could likely do the same if I compared a normal filter and one rolling off at 10 khz.
 

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Sharur, who apparently passed the test as well, used a LCD-5, which has good treble extension, but nothing crazy high as well.
Why do people still bring his name up? His videos are just crap where he often shows how little he understand about audio and how good he is at bullshitting, he's just a troll and nothing else. I mean he recently released a feel-sorry-for-me-video where he talks about him being diagnosed with baldness while showing his head that's almost as far from bald as possibility possible, is that not the definition of a troll?
 
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MacClintock

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I passed the Klippel distortion hearing tests with a score of -69 dB, which is the highest possible score. My strategy was to significantly increase the volume. This allowed me to hear the high order distortion harmonics that were otherwise masked by the auditory masking threshold of the fundamental. I believe the test tones were around 125 dB. Rapidly increasing and decreasing the volume also made it easier for me to detect distortion.

If there are differences at -46db, I think these differences are not very hard to hear.
Again it´s -46dB above 20 kHz, so if your hearing is that good, be welcome to pass the ABX test as well.
 
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MacClintock

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Why do people still bring his name up? His videos are just crap where he often shows how little he understand about audio and how good he is at bullshitting, he's just a troll and nothing else. I mean he recently released a feel-sorry-for-me-video where he talks about him being diagnosed with baldness while showing his head that's almost as far from bald as possibility possible, is that not the definition of a troll?
I think we should focus the discussion on the pertinent facts and data, not persons. I, personally, dislike GoldenSound quite a bit, but he apparently did something nobody expected to be possible and it is not completely clear how he did it, so it is interesting to discuss it and elucidate the scientific and technical basis of it.
 

amirm

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I, personally, dislike GoldenSound quite a bit, but he apparently did something nobody expected to be possible and it is not completely clear how he did it, so it is interesting to discuss it and elucidate the scientific and technical basis of it.
Again as I noted very early in the thread, controlled blind testing by Meridian/MQA folks showed audibility of different DAC filters. This was peer reviewed and published at AES.
 

solderdude

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I passed the Klippel distortion hearing tests with a score of -69 dB, which is the highest possible score. My strategy was to significantly increase the volume. This allowed me to hear the high order distortion harmonics that were otherwise masked by the auditory masking threshold of the fundamental. I believe the test tones were around 125 dB. Rapidly increasing and decreasing the volume also made it easier for me to detect distortion.

If there are differences at -46db, I think these differences are not very hard to hear.
Those differences are not above 20kHz. In this case they are and on top of that very short lived. Music is something entirely different than test tones and the 20kHz content is part of music that has content below 20kHz as well. To actually perceive a 20kHz you really need to crank the volume up (with test tones > 20kHz) to at least 80dB SPL with young ears.
 
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