As a guitar player, is audio interface your only option?

[GM3]

Nope....
Your telling me you have the control from your guitar you can get with tubes with anything Line 6 .?

Yes. How much is real and how much is in your head? There's countless people who tweak their systems with power cables and all sorts of things which make absolutely no difference. They'd swear on their mother's graves they can also all hear it and that they're definitely not imagining it. How many would believe it's not real?

Have you ever done a blind test vs one of the latest gen modelers? Here are some people who did...

Spoiler: 2 clips

Lots of blind AB tests, do they sound exactly the same? No, but even 2 amps don't sound the same, so real vs model can't be identical either. But good enough, most audible differences come from settings imho. Ex:

Spoiler: clip

Line 6 doesn't have my amp as they are made for me & my playing style...

What's your amp and your playing style? There's many rare and almost unique amps, as well as boutique... Hard for me to imagine someone not finding at least a couple amps they'd like in there, but I guess ymmv...

For guitars... It's more subjective because guitars do actually vary by feel; neck shape and all. But the sound does come from the pickups, some have tested woods and even a guitar without a body, sounds the same..

For vintage pickups, there's no magic there.. As they degrade, magnets weaken, and that can impact sound, but I remember some comparing custom shop versions of the real guitars and the results were extremely close. And it's not like anyone needs the exact sound of a particular guitar or amp ... Right? So many great PU choices these days... But I guess to each their own... If you've found the one, you've found the one.. lol

Like I said, guitarists are people too, and they possess the same flaws as everybody else. To think otherwise would be silly no? But I guess there are exceptions out there, so many people with absolutely incredible hearing that can hear the sound of different cables or even power cables! I'm sure there's many guitarist equivalents who can tell how the difference choice of woods affect tone, or instantly tell modeler from the real amp!

 

[Waxx]

Yes. How much is real and how much is in your head? There's countless people who tweak their systems with power cables and all sorts of things which make absolutely no difference. They'd swear on their mother's graves they can also all hear it and that they're definitely not imagining it. How many would believe it's not real?

The thing is, it doe not matter. It's a tool for the guitarist to make him play in the way he wants. Nothing is objective here concerning sound, everything is subjective on the tone of the guitar. It's a musical instruments, where how the musician use it makes the difference.

And i think there is where the core is of our difference in view. We see the amp as part of the instrument, not as a hifi amplification of that instrument. It should help the musician to bring his musical message to the audience, and how that is done is 100% subjective as it's art. If modelling is your way, that is 100% right, in your subjective artistic view. And today the quality of the simulation is that great that it even will sound as a real amp. But if it wasn't, it's still your artistic choice, and so by definition 100% subjective.

And be real, an electric guitar does not sound like an acoustic guitar (where it's based on), it's a different instrument that does (today at least) not have the ambition to sound as a real acoustic guitar, it got it's own sound.

 

[GM3]

The thing is, it doe not matter.

Do snake-oil power cables, interconnects, etc.; equally not matter? Because it's the exact same thing. It's what real/true, vs what isn't. Either a $450 fx units is distinguishable from a $3000 amp or it isn't... Either fx units are good enough these days to replace real amps, or they aren't...

Nothing is objective here concerning sound, everything is subjective on the tone of the guitar.

You're switching goalposts here. Let's stick to amps & cabs! Guitars are a different beast; there's the feel (neck width, shape, radius, etc.), there's scale length which can also affect tone, pick ups, strings, etc. indeed, extremely subjective & really different. No guitarist worthy of the name would confuse a Strat and a Les Paul in a BT because they are very different. But for modern FX units vs real amps/cabs, it's another story! Albeit, for true vintage vs custom shop reproduction, that could be another story too!

And i think there is where the core is of our difference in view. We see the amp as part of the instrument, not as a hifi amplification of that instrument. It should help the musician to bring his musical message to the audience, and how that is done is 100% subjective as it's art. If modelling is your way, that is 100% right, in your subjective artistic view.

Don't think we disagree here. But imagine a carpenter, who raves about his vintage hammer, and attributes almost supernatural properties to it vs current hammers, even custom made hammers made by expert blacksmith... You see, his hammer is more than a tool, it's an extension of his body, when he creates, he doesn't just build something, it's art, it inspires him! Does that warrant making erroneous and false claims about his tools?

But yeah I'll agree that the experience of using FX unit vs real gear is completely different. And like you said, for live, in-room sound, tweaking, etc., again, it's a different experience. I can definitely understand the appeal of real gear, but like I said, overlooking FX units in 2024, especially if based on falsehoods, is a great mistake!

Even vintage guitars I'm guessing, a custom shop guitar with relic is still a reproduction, so in a sense, even if it was an exact copy, it's a bit like owning a Picasso vs owning a reproduction, I'm sure it's a very different experience, if you aren't aware that your Picasso is a fake!

 

[vert]

In my case, I'm not overlooking them, but the plethora of choice itself can get overwhelming. Given the learning curve, what system (modelling or profiling) or brand (Fractal, Kemper, Line6, UA, Boss, etc.) are you willing to commit to? What amount of your time? And I have to say, listening to many demos or regular channels on YouTube that use modellers, a lot of guys do not sound that great, and don't even seem to realize it. That can be due to many things besides the quality of modellers, like having too much choice, and not committing to a single amp that people used to experiment with more in dept,h because that's all they had, instead of moving on to the next great thing; or the temptation to use everything offered in the box - how many guys have a tone literally dripping with effects: yuck.
Recently I purchased some NAM profiles from a reputable vendor. Although my PC has all the power necessary, the profiles did not feel and sound right, even after various adjustments; it's obviously not due to the product, but an issue with my setup... how much more time will I need to hunt down the issue, given the limited time I have ? Etc. The allure of digital amps is strong but they can easily become a rabbit hole and demand huge amounts of time, IMO.

 

[Waxx]

Do snake-oil power cables, interconnects, etc.; equally not matter? Because it's the exact same thing. It's what real/true, vs what isn't. Either a $450 fx units is distinguishable from a $3000 amp or it isn't... Either fx units are good enough these days to replace real amps, or they aren't...


You're switching goalposts here. Let's stick to amps & cabs! Guitars are a different beast; there's the feel (neck width, shape, radius, etc.), there's scale length which can also affect tone, pick ups, strings, etc. indeed, extremely subjective & really different. No guitarist worthy of the name would confuse a Strat and a Les Paul in a BT because they are very different. But for modern FX units vs real amps/cabs, it's another story! Albeit, for true vintage vs custom shop reproduction, that could be another story too!


Don't think we disagree here. But imagine a carpenter, who raves about his vintage hammer, and attributes almost supernatural properties to it vs current hammers, even custom made hammers made by expert blacksmith... You see, his hammer is more than a tool, it's an extension of his body, when he creates, he doesn't just build something, it's art, it inspires him! Does that warrant making erroneous and false claims about his tools?

But yeah I'll agree that the experience of using FX unit vs real gear is completely different. And like you said, for live, in-room sound, tweaking, etc., again, it's a different experience. I can definitely understand the appeal of real gear, but like I said, overlooking FX units in 2024, especially if based on falsehoods, is a great mistake!

Even vintage guitars I'm guessing, a custom shop guitar with relic is still a reproduction, so in a sense, even if it was an exact copy, it's a bit like owning a Picasso vs owning a reproduction, I'm sure it's a very different experience, if you aren't aware that your Picasso is a fake!

We are not talking about cables here (and on that it's the same as hifi, copper stranded cables of the right gauge with good connectors cover it all concerning sound). But the choice to use this or that amp or modeller is never based on objective parameters because there are no standards in how an electric guitar should sound. Each guitar player has his own sound, and how he gets there is his subjective artistic choice. And tubes are chosen not because they sound magical better, but becaue the tone of driving them hard into distortion makes the tone of the amp (toghetter with the coloured speakers those have).

You claim that guitar amps are not valid anymore and everybody should use modellers for amps and sfx, and that is bullshit. Amps did not become irrellevant for guitar players, they just have another series of options now to choose (the modellers), next to real amps and effects. And that choice and what they do with it is purely subjective and part of the artistic choices they make. If they want to use a rare amp and tons of effect, it can be good, but a simple cheap amp can also be good (depending on the goal), just like old and new modellers. And no, that does not mean you need to spend a zillion bucks on it to get a good sound because you need that rare old amp or guitar. And most don't need that tons of models to choose from, a good guitarist can get a lot of different tones from his sole amp alone and only need effects that the amp does not have (reverb, phaser, delay, ...).

It's true there is a lot of snobism in the guitar world, but you don't have to participate into that. And some of the greatest guitar players played on fairly simple and cheap rigs with great sounds. It' better to have a simple rig and know it inside out than have a zillion possibilities that you don't understand.

 

[GM3]

We are not talking about cables here

Right.. I asked you if you thought Audiophile snake-oil matters or also doesn't matter. Your claim was that modelers do not provide you with "the control from your guitar you can get with tubes with anything Line 6 [...] most guitar players (if not all) that i know still prefer a real amp, and in most cases a tube amp (at least the preamp with tubes) for the distortion characteristics."

You made the claim that profilers aren't as good as real amps; less control than real tube amps, different distortion characteristics, etc. And I provided you with blind tests which seem to indicate otherwise. You've somewhat changed your tune in more recent comments and seem to have admitted that modelers can sound just as good, but haven't answered the question about whether or not you believe audiophile snake-oil equally matter or not.

no standards in how an electric guitar should sound

Like I said, it's not about guitars. If we're talking amps, and if a Fender Bassman amp is emulated, that's the standard; whether you can identify the real amp in a blind test vs emulated amp. Whether the real amp really sounds the same or different; better or not.

You claim that guitar amps are not valid anymore and everybody should use modellers for amps and sfx, and that is bullshit.

You're correct that it's bullshit, because that's a strawman and I don't believe I ever said such thing. (ex; "overlooking FX units in 2024, especially if based on falsehoods, is a great mistake!")

My main beef here was whether or not real amps sound better than current gen profilers... Exactly like whether or not snake-oil power cables sound better than regular power cables.

You can buy whatever you want, maybe you're more inspired by the music when you see a power cord the size of your arm that costs as much as a sports car, and that helps you get into the music... It's your choice... I agree. If we agree on what is true/real; the veracity of the statement of whether or not it makes an audible difference, that's what matters to me, what is real; the objectively true; the veracity.

There's as much snake-oil in the guitar industry than there is in the audiophile industry; which is normal, people are people. Some people believe that 90s Klon Centaurs sound different than other pedals with the exact same circuit, and are willing to pay like 2-3k for them...! Some believe real amps sound better than profilers and are willing to pay thousands instead of just getting a modeler, because they think they sound, play or feel different... My point is that these people, like audiofools, likely wouldn't pass a blind test.

I'm fine with whatever choices/preferences you have, and I agreed that the experience is totally different, people can buy whatever they want. But I don't support gaslighting, snake-oil, false claims or statements, etc.!

 

[Jaxjax]

Remember when "Beano" came out..?
Tone copied a Billion times over by analog pedals, tube circuits, DSP etc... but really the only way to do it is is shear spl & amp at melt down.
Same with Angus & Malcom Young, Doesn't matter if JTM45/50, 59 superleads etc.. It's how they use/used them...A clean boost to mimic the Shaffer-Vega & then its about the amp set to ragged edge of fire with 128db in his wedge ..
& then finally its the player..you can't reproduce that....
I fortunately live rural & can do outdoor high spl playing when ever I want. It's a treat..

 

[just1n]

I’m considering the Neural DSP Quad Cortex. It’s expensive, but it seems to tick most boxes for an emulator. I intend to use it with the speaker can IRs, but if one day I do grab a speaker cabinet, I’ll remove it from the signal chain.

The capture solution would be fun to try. Grab some used pedals or amps and see what tones I can make up then sell/trade.

 

[goat76]

In this video, they are comparing the sound of a real Fender Princeton vs a sound profile on a Kemper amp which they have worked on for about 5 hours to get it to match as closely as possible to the real thing. Still, while blind testing it, they can instantly hear which one is the real amp even if the model does a decent job simulating the sound. To some, I guess it's good enough while others will miss the last little thing that the model amp doesn't seem to nail just yet.

One important thing that I suspect is not simulated perfectly yet is how a real tube amp reacts at the breakup point, you know when a guitar player plays dynamically balancing between soft playing for the cleaner tune, and digging in a little bit harder just to tip over the breakup point where the tubes distort just enough and react delicately and dynamically to the way to the playing. The guys in the video seem to think that the Kemper amp compresses the sound a little bit too much when played harder, compared to the real amp.

 

[Jaxjax]

For low spl stuff I use a Princeton Reverb & pedal board & you can do some cool stull on it...but even the custom stacked pedal circuit shown can't get certain things..unless you jack it then your in earplug territory with a quickness without isolation..but it gets better as it should the more out of control it gets.This PR has the 12" "weed" driver in it..lol Key words here is "out of control" till I control it via volume knob on guitar....
But for sheer brutal swirly, spongey completely out of control & tamed like a pro bull rider... this is something I use time to time outdoors.

I did try to go modeler/emulation & few times for my low spl stuff, but always ended up selling or giving away those untis & right back to analog pedal board into semi clean fender amps. Much simpler for me & very few nobs & such to get to know & know well.. I'm not knocking anything to produce music at all.. it doesn't matter what you use as it's art..
I remember when all this emulation craze was hot & heavy...I have also seen since this all started a great deal of guitarist run from it & go back to more simple painting tools.

 

[GM3]

Here's another of HX Stomp vs Vintage Marshall. Jaxjax makes a great point also about the usability of modelers vs real amps! For L6 you set master volume 10/10 and ch vol to 3/10 and you get that max saturation sound without going deaf. To do that with real amps, you need a doohickey, what's the name.. Attenuator, but that's another $500-2000 LOL, well, some amps have the 1W/15W/50W or whatever switch too... #notall

I'd say, get a real amp/cab if:
1) You're rich, or your parents are rich and you just want to for whatever reason (just because you can is fine too)
2) You're a pro and/or minimalist player doing live gigs and that 1 amp is your sound, and/or own a studio; basically, you're a pro and using it in a professional setting, as a tool of the trade
3) you really really really want a tube amp! (and can afford it obviously)

Modelers if
1) You're on a budget
2) You have neighbors or family so 11/10 volume isn't practical (required for best/some tones)
3) You're a student or amateur
4) you want/need to travel light
5) you like effects, and want to build complex tones, and have the ability to quickly change between them
6) you want versatility or like experimenting with many sounds and effects
7) you want to easily do recording; some modern amps have USB out + IR or whatnot, but unless you have a studio, modelers make the entire process a lot easier.
8) you want to use multiple amps and cabs... 80+ amps in the box for $450 beats one amp for $3000.
9) you want stereo; or dual amps and/or dual cabs
10) you don't want to mess with tubes & such crap that needs servicing (although not that bad; can be years without service).
11) you're a pro with a vast repertoire and need access to multiple sounds; ex; your band do covers and stuff

 

[1st.Virtual.Me]

"Tonex One" releases in May is a $180 pedal. It takes full advantage of the Tonex ecosystem and can load any of the 20k+ tone models available. Youtube reviewers have already null tested it and it nulls great. Sounds just like the big expensive tone modelers.

It is also a USB audio interface for your electric guitar.

 

[JimBean]

"Tonex One" releases in May is a $180 pedal. It takes full advantage of the Tonex ecosystem and can load any of the 20k+ tone models available. Youtube reviewers have already null tested it and it nulls great. Sounds just like the big expensive tone modelers.

It is also a USB audio interface for your electric guitar.

The only issue I have with that kind of stuff is what happens when the app/software stops being supported. Which is one of many reasons I stick to tube amps. Although modeling amps have gotten better. I still like the way fuzz/drive pedals cause my tube amps to clip/distort, as opposed to solid state.

 

[vert]

Here's another of HX Stomp vs Vintage Marshall. Jaxjax makes a great point also about the usability of modelers vs real amps! For L6 you set master volume 10/10 and ch vol to 3/10 and you get that max saturation sound without going deaf. To do that with real amps, you need a doohickey, what's the name.. Attenuator, but that's another $500-2000 LOL, well, some amps have the 1W/15W/50W or whatever switch too... #notall

I'd say, get a real amp/cab if:
1) You're rich, or your parents are rich and you just want to for whatever reason (just because you can is fine too)
2) You're a pro and/or minimalist player doing live gigs and that 1 amp is your sound, and/or own a studio; basically, you're a pro and using it in a professional setting, as a tool of the trade
3) you really really really want a tube amp! (and can afford it obviously)

Modelers if
1) You're on a budget
2) You have neighbors or family so 11/10 volume isn't practical (required for best/some tones)
3) You're a student or amateur
4) you want/need to travel light
5) you like effects, and want to build complex tones, and have the ability to quickly change between them
6) you want versatility or like experimenting with many sounds and effects
7) you want to easily do recording; some modern amps have USB out + IR or whatnot, but unless you have a studio, modelers make the entire process a lot easier.
8) you want to use multiple amps and cabs... 80+ amps in the box for $450 beats one amp for $3000.
9) you want stereo; or dual amps and/or dual cabs
10) you don't want to mess with tubes & such crap that needs servicing (although not that bad; can be years without service).
11) you're a pro with a vast repertoire and need access to multiple sounds; ex; your band do covers and stuff

I agree and that pretty much sums up how I feel about tube amps (nothing against them... except their impracticality). I'd say some solid state amps are pretty good, though, the big plus being how they perform at low volumes. I don't feel short-changed by my little Quilter, but my needs are pretty simple, and the majority of my playing remains acoustic (a guitar by itself still sounds pretty good, imagine that!).

 

[Waxx]

There are also small amps that can give you the distortd sound. That comes mainly from the preamp stage, not the end amping. But something like the classic Vox AC10 does that with 10w of output power also. And those smaller amps are better for studio use than those big 100w or more heads that most fancy. And that is a relative cheap amp, used by many guitarist i know as excercise amp, just because you can have your tones at low volume. Marshall and Fender (the two other big brands) have similar amps that are only a little bit more expensive, but still full tube and with overdrive channels.

I learned how to play the guitar with a Squier Strat and a Vox AC10 long time ago, and then it costed me about 5000 Belgian francs (it was before the Euro, but about 125€) second hand, now that will probally be arround 600€ in value. I switched to bass later, but that squier strat/Vox combo was sold to a friend who later used it for a rockband that had local success, and even was played on national radio. I was more into hardcore and metal (to extreme for national radio) at that time.

But if the modeller does it better for your case, off course you use them. But you can excercise on low volume with a real amp also. Just don't juse a 100W head for it, 5 to 10 watt combo's at volume 11 are also good. That's how a lot of guitarists that i know excercise, as most live in appartments in the city.