GoldenSounds passes apparently ABX test for DACs (NOT Really)

[Blockader]

According to the delta wave delta plots, he highest peak around 20khz was -46db. If he was listening at 110db with his headphones, that would make the peak at 64db. Due to how equal loudness contours work, that's going to be audible like a peak around 52db at 2000hz. 52db is totally audible especially in the last octave when there are no peaks to mask it. (even 20db is audible)

In other words, what Golden Sound did isn't extraordinary. Anyone who is trained and can hear frequencies between 20-21 kHz can pass the test with the right loudness levels.

 

[kemmler3D]

by this definition, a device will never be transparent since you can always construct a situation where it is not.

Well, sure, if you overload the inputs or something, anything will stop being transparent. Maybe I should have qualified that by saying "without abusing the equipment". Obviously every real-world piece of equipment has a limited range of operation.

I just think this current case is interesting because if you had asked me "Can someone tell two reconstruction filters apart if there's only an appreciable difference above 20khz" I would have said "very unlikely, almost impossible", but here we are. This is the kind of surprising event I like.

Is this relevant to anyone's music listening enjoyment? Only in the "overkill soothes my upgradeitis" sense.

 

[SIY]

If he was listening at 110db with his headphones, that would make the peak at 64db. Due to how equal loudness contours work, that's going to be audible like a peak around 40db at 2000hz.

Is that valid in the presence of 110dB sound?

 

[oleg87]

In other words, what Golden Sound did isn't extraordinary. Anyone who is trained and can hear frequencies between 20-21 kHz can pass the test with the right loudness levels.

I don't find it unbelievable that someone somewhere along the distribution of human perceptual ability may hear this difference, but I don't think "anyone" can.
I think I've seen one person report being able to (unreliably) repeat this feat in this thread. I think I've got a pretty decent ear (though I certainly can't hear 20khz) but I couldn't find a tell playing it at 0.5x rate even at volumes I found quite uncomfortable. Maybe if I spent more time trying to hear something, but life's too short.

 

[dasdoing]

Maybe I should have qualified that by saying "without abusing the equipment". Obviously every real-world piece of equipment has a limited range of operation.

But that's not what I mean. boosting volume up "500%" on a looped quiet passage has been mentioned. you are not abusing anything, but are creating a situation that will never happen in real life.

 

[kemmler3D]

will never happen in real life.

Well, maybe not just listening to music, but in professional use "looping a short passage at elevated volume" is a very realistic use case...

I'm just feeling like this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. The guy apparently passed an ABX using cues near ultrasound. This is interesting (to me) but it's not a stop the presses moment, either. It doesn't challenge any accepted truths about audio or hearing that I'm aware of. So I don't see the need to move goalposts and say it doesn't count because the use case isn't realistic enough. Even if you take it at face value it doesn't really change anything, so I'm not sure why it's even worth arguing over.

I think the questioning of method is quite valid and useful, we want to know exactly how good the test was of course. But whether the test is informative or meaningful... if you don't think so, nobody's forcing anyone to read the thread, and I'm not aware any controversial follow-up claims have been made?

 

[danadam]

that would make the peak at 64db. Due to how equal loudness contours work, that's going to be audible like a peak around 52db at 2000hz.

How do you know what the curves look like past 13/14 kHz?

 

[board]

One the other hand generalizations don't work either for us.

If we get under the umbrella of "most people" we all (at least the ones who do actual tests) suspect that a 40dB SINAD DAC (dominated by low order distortion and not noise) would be indistinguishable by a 110dB SINAD one for most people out the street* who casually listen whatever music they listen to.

So?We would draw a line there and say is adequate because most people (the absolute vast majority) don't hear or don't care to hear the difference?
We care about engineering excellence (and I wish we all cared the same about safety,reliability,etc as is the insurance companies joyride to refuse claims based on device's certifications) even if it does not translate to better SQ for most people (and over some not scientifically defined thresholds,for all people) .

Switching between those two sometimes helps the narrative,but that's not the scientific way.

*or not so out the street but by conscious listeners too,read a little up this post on the thread here

Yep, I agree. I think most of us agree that this hobby is reserved for a tiny percent of the population who actually cares about these things. I have given ABX tests to several girlfriends and even my aunt, who is diagnosed with something akin to PTSD and therefore was very nervous about the test, and they all passed, but I honestly don't think many of them really cared about the fact that they could actually hear a difference and that there were also tests where I could pass but they couldn't, nor do I think they would want to listen to music that way - to them it's melody, rhythms, lyrics, not tiny differences in timbre, brightness, murkiness, etc.
I think most of us on this forum also agree that some people can pass certain tests while others can't, and some people care about it while others don't, but it becomes problematic when people can't pass a test yet insist they can actually hear a difference.
I've seen people claim they could hear a difference, and when they failed a test they accepted that it had all been imaginary, and that's the kind of people I like, but too many people insist the test must be broken if they fail - which is often like religious people or people who believe in zodiacs, tarrot cards, conspiracy theories, etc.
I do also find it a bit silly to buy a certain product "because in this specific song this split second sounded different". I think we should buy something because it makes the majority of our music sound (much) better, not a tiny difference in very specific situations.

 

[VientoB]

According to the delta wave delta plots, he highest peak around 20khz was -46db. If he was listening at 110db with his headphones, that would make the peak at 64db. Due to how equal loudness contours work, that's going to be audible like a peak around 52db at 2000hz. 52db is totally audible especially in the last octave when there are no peaks to mask it. (even 20db is audible)

In other words, what Golden Sound did isn't extraordinary. Anyone who is trained and can hear frequencies between 20-21 kHz can pass the test with the right loudness levels.

We don’t know how loud he was listening at. Let’s wait and see.

 

[Westsounds]

He has Golden Balls, what did you expect!