Marantz Cinema 30

[lashto]

Some more confirmation bias review from Ripewave.
...

Their THD graphs look quite interesting (the screenshot is not time matched, just press play&pause). That's distortion measured where it actually matters: at your ears.

Based on previous ASR measurements, many say that the Denons are much 'better' than Marantz. But the exact opposite seems to be true (at least when used as designed & sold which is full AVRs).
Also the "low end" Cinema 50 has a little less distortion than the "high end" Cinema 30.

 

[EWL5]

Their THD graphs look quite interesting (the screenshot is not time matched, just press play&pause). That's distortion measured where it actually matters: at your ears.

Based on previous ASR measurements, many say that the Denons are much 'better' than Marantz. But the exact opposite seems to be true (at least when used as designed & sold which is full AVRs).
Also the "low end" Cinema 50 has a little less distortion than the "high end" Cinema 30.

No one has ever said Denon is better than Marantz. Denon is a “better value” due to the big price difference! At worst, they’ll measure the same!

 

[lashto]

No one has ever said Denon is better than Marantz. ...

you must be new around here

Just look at the older measurements threads. Not so long ago, many were looking at the preout SINADs in isolation (Denon 95+, Marantz 7-8x): the Denons were "better", the Marantzes "distorted" and the extra HDAMs were supposed to be useless/bad. Even though the amp-outs usually measured ~same.
Nowadays, the Marantz preouts measure ~same and the amp-outs seem to be much 'better'.
Times they are a changing .. or maybe they were always like that where it matters (at the ears).

Anyway, just saying and I am not the bigest fan of SINAD numbers. Especially when taken out of context and/or as some sort of gospel.

 

[EWL5]

you must be new around here

Just look at the older measurements threads. Not so long ago, many were looking at the preout SINADs in isolation (Denon 95+, Marantz 7-8x): the Denons were "better", the Marantzes "distorted" and the extra HDAMs were supposed to be useless/bad. Even though the amp-outs usually measured ~same.
Nowadays, the Marantz preouts measure ~same and the amp-outs seem to be much 'better'.
Times they are a changing .. or maybe they were always like that where it matters (at the ears).

Anyway, just saying and I am not the bigest fan of SINAD numbers. Especially when taken out of context and/or as some sort of gospel.

I may be "newer" around here but I used to sell Denon/Marantz products and familiar w/all the games used to trick customers who are more than willing to hear what they want to hear!

 

[lashto]

I may be "newer" around here but I used to sell Denon/Marantz products and familiar w/all the games used to trick customers who are more than willing to hear what they want to hear!

tricking customers is so easy, it's not even funny. Particularly with such complex devices.

But it looks like 'tricking' people with measurements is not much harder. It may happen even if noone tries
Many seem to forget that a SINAD number is not the only/most important thing. And no matter how well it's done, an ASR review is still a single set of measurements. Not exactly complete and only done for one device at one time.

It's ~impossible for anyone to do more and ASR measurements are very good and very useful ... but still very far from jump-into-conclusions quality.

 

[peng]

I have had Marantz receivers in the last 5 years and the fans never came into play. Never

Again, hot, warm and in between is a little subjective. Different placement, usage makes it hard to compare notes with others. The only thing that may be more objective is if one compare two units used the same way, and in the same place and then take measurements.

In my experience, my Marantz AV7005 and AV8801 ran about same as "hot/warm" as my Denon AVRs. And, my Anthem AVM70 had it's fan on already, because the fan is audible from 11 ft, so I put the ext. fan (that I used with the Marantz and Denon) back on.

If such an AVR actually runs notably cooler (by measurements) than others, I probably wouldn't necessarily good about that, and would investigate the potential causes, for example, if it's because the bias current is on the low side, I might consider it a negative (though not always), for class AB amps.

I am surprised that your C30 is considered running cool, even when using the build in power amps, but with Marantz, I am sure it is all for good reasons, likely a combination of ECO (like auto, some preamp mode via amp assign, well vented on all sides, highly efficient power supplies etc., and of course, your usage/application) so good for you.

 

[CCCC]

Again, hot, warm and in between is a little subjective. Different placement, usage makes it hard to compare notes with others. The only thing that may be more objective is if one compare two units used the same way, and in the same place and then take measurements.

In my experience, my Marantz AV7005 and AV8801 ran about same as "hot/warm" as my Denon AVRs. And, my Anthem AVM70 had it's fan on already, because the fan is audible from 11 ft, so I put the ext. fan (that I used with the Marantz and Denon) back on.

If such an AVR actually runs notably cooler (by measurements) than others, I probably wouldn't necessarily good about that, and would investigate the potential causes, for example, if it's because the bias current is on the low side, I might consider it a negative (though not always), for class AB amps.

I am surprised that your C30 is considered running cool, even when using the build in power amps, but with Marantz, I am sure it is all for good reasons, likely a combination of ECO (like auto, some preamp mode via amp assign, well vented on all sides, highly efficient power supplies etc., and of course, your usage/application) so good for you.

I am not talking about Hot, Warm, spicy or sweet… I have just said that FANS DID NOT ENTER INTO FUNCTION EVER. No subjective talk, just a fact

 

[peng]

I am not talking about Hot, Warm, spicy or sweet… I have just said that FANS DID NOT ENTER INTO FUNCTION EVER. No subjective talk, just a fact

Sorry, was thinking about some earlier posts. I believe those fans won't come on unless the heatsinks reach dangerously high temperature.

Imo that' may not be good for lonevity (again, that depends on individual cases) but it helps keep their customers happy. Many users use ext fan regardless, and many won't bother, naturally.

 

[CCCC]

One thing I can confirm, and I know this has been polemic.. is that Pure Direct mode is not bypassing the internal DAC. I have an external dac that I know very well and when I change the filters, for example from Fast Linear to Slow Minimun, which are quite different, sound does not change at all. In my previous AVR, which had 7.1CH IN analog inputs, changing the dac filter was immediately noticeable. I know Denon/Marantz say that Pure Direct bypasses internal dac, but that is not happening according to my experience

 

[CCCC]

Also, connecting my dac via HDMI (Marantz DAC in use) sounds exactly the same as connecting the DAC via RCA (supossedly external DAC in use)

 

[peng]

One thing I can confirm, and I know this has been polemic.. is that Pure Direct mode is not bypassing the internal DAC. I have an external dac that I know very well and when I change the filters, for example from Fast Linear to Slow Minimun, which are quite different, sound does not change at all. In my previous AVR, which had 7.1CH IN analog inputs, changing the dac filter was immediately noticeable. I know Denon/Marantz say that Pure Direct bypasses internal dac, but that is not happening according to my experience

Unless the Cinema 30 is unique in this, other devices measured, including the Cinema 40 (By Amir) and AV10 (by Gene) clearly showed the internal ADC/DACs are bypassed in direct mode when analog inputs are used. Marantz own block diagram shows that the bypass can be done via the following switch:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/294/NJU72750_E-779912.pdf

So again, the C30 could be different, but I doubt it very much, unfortunately it has been been tested by Gene or Amir to confirm it by measurements, and there is no service manual available for any of the 2022/23 Marantz or Denon models.

That obviously does not mean everyone would or would not hear differences in their applications, for a variety of reasons...

 

[lashto]

I am not talking about Hot, Warm, spicy or sweet… I have just said that FANS DID NOT ENTER INTO FUNCTION EVER. No subjective talk, just a fact

Guess you wanted to say that you never heard those fans. I did not either.
But that does not mean they weren't running, could just be that they are very quiet.

 

[peng]

Guess you wanted to say that you never heard those fans. I did not either.
But that does not mean they weren't running, could just be that they are very quiet.

Could be, but I still think they will run when it gets really hot, like above 45 deg C on top of the enclosure, and I doubt they are speed control. It is their balancing act between minimizing warranty repair, and customer complains about fan noise.

Speed control, and quiet fans just cost too much for those midrange avrs, Anthem's avrs/avps are examples, those sensitive to fan noise have either swapped out the fans, risk warranty, or just put up with it. I chose to use an ext. fan that is not audible even from a foot away, and it stopped the noisy fan running. Money fixed most things, in this case, it did for me.

 

[ban25]

Could be, but I still think they will run when it gets really hot, like above 45 deg C on top of the enclosure, and I doubt they are speed control. It is their balancing act between minimizing warranty repair, and customer complains about fan noise.

Speed control, and quiet fans just cost too much for those midrange avrs, Anthem's avrs/avps are examples, those sensitive to fan noise have either swapped out the fans, risk warranty, or just put up with it. I chose to use an ext. fan that is not audible even from a foot away, and it stopped the noisy fan running. Money fixed most things, in this case, it did for me.

A temperature probe and a PWM fan hardly seems complicated or expensive. At most a few dollars of components when purchased individually at retail. What's the MSRP on the AVM90? $7500?

 

[peng]

A temperature probe and a PWM fan hardly seems complicated or expensive. At most a few dollars of components when purchased individually at retail. What's the MSRP on the AVM90? $7500?

Think avm70, mrx740, search for fan noise on ASR.

Dac chips don't cost much either, yet D+M won't use the ones that cost a few dollars more, I don't blame them, it adds up.

 

[peng]

By the way, I know Anthem uses a low cost fan but not sure if the have speed control. For Denon, I could look through the SMs to see if speed control is used in the older models such as the x4500h, SR6014, my guess, is, not....

Edit:

Info for those curious about the fans used only:

The 4500, so presumably the SR6014, SR7013 etc., likely be the same, do have speed control albeit only 2 speeds. The ex flagship 8500 has at least 3 speeds. The Cinema 30, being a new flagship might have better schemes but we won't know for sure unless someone can get an answer from Marantz. For those older models, the threshold for the low speed is probably around 75 deg at the radiator.

Here's an example of the fan found in one of the AVP I owned briefly, the noise was audible as soon as it turns on so even if it has speed control, that's still annoying:

X-Fan RDH8025B1 80 x 80 x 25mm Axial Fan 12V Ball Bearing | Rapid Online

X-Fan - RDH8025B1 - X-Fan RDH8025B1 80 x 80 x 25mm Axial Fan 12V Ball Bearing - <P><STRONG>RDH8025B1 </STRONG>is a high-quality ball bearing <STRONG>12V DC

www.rapidonline.com

I hope D+M uses quieter ones. The one below has been used in the past, couldn't find the noise spec.:

Like man other owners reported, I have also never heard any of them turned on in my previous Denon AVRs and my Marantz AVPs that I wasn't sure if they had fans in them.

HK FAN AS8025L12 Server-Square Fan AS8025L12

DC 12V 0.12A, 80x80x25mm, 2-Wire AS8025L12 HK FAN AS8025L12 12V 0.12A, 80x80x25, 2-w, Server-Square Fan

www.pchub.com

HK FAN AS8025L12 Server-Square Fan AS8025L12

HK FAN,DC 12V 0.12A, 80x80x25mm, 2-Wire

suemao.com

 

[peng]

I would also like to add that for those who run speakers that have poor phase angle characteristics, it really is advisable to use ext. fan with AVRs instead of relying on the manufacturer's and therefore at their mercy of how they do their balancing act of setting the fan control threshold low enough for protection vs setting it high to avoid noise issues. The following TI article is a good read, for better understanding:

At the minimum, use of ext. fan should help in terms of longevity, and may even (yes, wishful thinking...) better audio performance, by keeping the electronics (opa, caps, transistors etc.) operating closer to their optimal conditions (as relative to operating temperature).

https://www.ti.com/lit/an/sboa022/sboa022.pdf?ts=1715689435914&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.bing.com%252F

 

[lashto]

Could be, but I still think they will run when it gets really hot, like above 45 deg C on top of the enclosure, and I doubt they are speed control. It is their balancing act between minimizing warranty repair, and customer complains about fan noise.

Speed control, and quiet fans just cost too much for those midrange avrs, Anthem's avrs/avps are examples, those sensitive to fan noise have either swapped out the fans, risk warranty, or just put up with it. I chose to use an ext. fan that is not audible even from a foot away, and it stopped the noisy fan running. Money fixed most things, in this case, it did for me.

guess an ext fan is a good idea if the AVR sits in a cabinet.
Mine sits on a lowboard, it only amps 5.x speakers and I usually listen in the 70dB range. The AVR mostly stays in Eco-mode and the enclosure barely gets warm.
Never had heat/fan worries and that is a big plus ... together with the D&M software which is still the most stable/usable.