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PlayClassics TRT v2.0 master file giveaway for ASR members

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Mario Martinez

Mario Martinez

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Here is some more useful information about the image of both, the piano and the drums:

There is nothing wrong with the images other than the fact that they are out of scale with each other. If you wanted to "see" a playback image of real size all you would have to do is move the speakers to match the scale of the recording setup.

Here is a sketch of the piano setup. To reproduce a real size image of the piano the speakers should be placed 11,365' apart. (If you played the drums here then the drums image would be too big)
Stage piano scale.png



Here is a sketch of the drums setup. To reproduce a real size image of the drums the speakers should be placed 7,456' apart. (If you played the piano here then the piano image would be too small)
Stage drums scale.png



We could have easily kept the same scale in both recordings by placing the drums in the same place as the piano. That way both images would have been "in sync" with each other no matter what the size of your system was.
 
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Mario Martinez

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Thanks Mario. It seems to me that once you forego cooking the mix in studio, then it becomes important how the instruments are placed in the room. So perhaps further manipulation of the rock instruments would result in something better.

Yes, I could not agree more :)

Please keep in mind that this kind of experiment has never been done before. Yes, there might be some rock recordings that have been made without the use of close miking, but even if they were recorded using only two microphones, they were mixed/mastered to try to achieve the particular rock sound that the engineer/producer had in mind. This mixing/mastering process is not a choice, it is a must. When you record any instrument on any room, hall or studio, the sound of the take is always deformed by the acoustics of that particular venue. You need to mix/master it to make it sound "good". Plus you also have to take into account the fact that, if they were recording an album, the musicians probably spent countless hours trying different settings in their instruments to get the best possible sound out of them.

Here we have something different. We are not mixing or mastering anything. What you are hearing is just the "true" sound of the instruments. Getting our setup to produce that "true" sound is what has taken us 8 years of research. The hall has been worked during years of trail and error to try to minimize all the acoustic problems and the calibration has been developed specifically for that hall to take care of whatever acoustic problems were left. That way, when you record any instruments in this setup, you know that what you are hearing on the recording is the "true" sound of the instrument without any coloration or deformation. This does not mean that the sound on the recording is going to be "pretty" it just means that it is the sound that the musicians produced (by themselves without the intervention of any engineer, producer…) That should justify the fact that this particular sample is never going to sound like the "rock" we all have in mind.

I also have to say that the musicians actually did a great job. They are not recording artists. They do live gigs. They are used to having an engineer construct their sound at the mixing table. When I told them we were going to record this way (that means that they were going to be completely exposed without the help of any touch up) they had the courage to do it and I am really grateful for that.
 

amirm

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When I told them we were going to record this way (that means that they were going to be completely exposed without the help of any touch up) they had the courage to do it and I am really grateful for that.
And us too. :)
 

hvbias

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Mario if you don't mind feedback from a headphone listener I'm happy to test this out. I'll have my ESL57 back in action in a couple of weeks.

Not to put you on the spot, do you have any historical piano recordings that you used as an additional reference?
 
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Mario Martinez

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Mario if you don't mind feedback from a headphone listener I'm happy to test this out. I'll have my ESL57 back in action in a couple of weeks.

Not to put you on the spot, do you have any historical piano recordings that you used as an additional reference?

Hi hvbias,

I just sent you the codes to the Albéniz Iberia, the Cabrera plays Debussy and the three experimental samples (Flamenco, drums and rock)

The purpose of our research project was to achieve transparency, so our only reference was the sound of the instruments themselves. It is a documentary approach. Trying to get to any other sound (even if we had subjectively though that it sounded better) would have been fantasy. :)
 

hvbias

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I've listened to the Flamenco SoundTest sampler and was very impressed with the sound. I do not have any real world reference for what a flamenco guitar sounds like, it certainly sounded very real with fantastic dynamics and tone which applies to the singer as well.

The only thing that would have made it sound a bit more "natural" to me is if the singer and guitar player shared a bit more of the phantom center (were closer together). However it's worth noting this is on headphones (Stax SR-007) and headphone listening with a bit of panned separation can be fatiguing which is why many people use crossfeed plugins. I look forward to trying it on my speakers.

I'm really looking forward to hearing Iberia, a fantastic piece. My favorite performer for it is Alicia de Larocha.

Thank you Mario!
 

hvbias

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I listened to Iberia (headphones again) and was mighty impressed with the sound quality! Nothing to fault at all, wonderful dynamics, tone and the sense of space that was captured.
 
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Mario Martinez

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We have had some more reports of people having problems with the downloads.

I have reported this issues to our hosting service to see if they could fix it.

As a backup plan, I have uploaded the Albeniz Album to Dropbox.

If anybody else is having trouble with the download please tell me and I will send you a direct link to download the Dropbox file.

I am really sorry for the inconvenience this is causing.
 

Sal1950

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Mario, Just a recommendation. I had some issues back last year with the way the downloads were handled by different browsers.
Just letting Firefox handle things has worked flawlessly with all your current links, when I exactly following your directions in the PM's.
Ciao
 

TBone

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Mario, the problem w/my firefox setup is my setup w/plug-ins. Since your key is 1 look only, the code is no longer available after the scripts are allowed to proceed. Therefore, in my setup, I'd have to disable certain plug-ins just to view the key on first attempt. A dropbox download would certainly prove easier..
 
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Mario Martinez

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Thank you hvbias!

all we are trying to do is capture the piano as it is. nothing more nothing less...

I am really glad you liked it :)


See if this makes sense:

Say we built a full range instrument designed to PRODUCE the same color on everyone note. If you allowed that instrument to vibrate freely (without the constrains of any walls around it) you would be able to HEAR that same color on every note. (Let's name this sound "A")

Now imagine you take that instrument into a room. The walls on that room will constrain the way the instrument vibrates. Depending on where on that room you place the instrument the distances from the different walls will affect each note in a different way. So the color of the instrument will not be homogeneous any more. It will now PRODUCE a slightly different color on every note. (Let's name this sound "B").

If you want to listen to it you will have to place yourself somewhere within that room. Depending on where on that room you place yourself the distances from the different walls will deform the sound of each note in a different way. This color deformation will not be homogeneous. For each note, you will now HEAR a different color from the one the instrument produced. (Let's name this sound "C")

But it does not stop there, because you are not listening live, we are making a recording. So instead of your ears, we are using two microphones and some gear to record that sound. Depending on your choice of mics, mic arrangement and gear the recording chain will also deform the sound. This color deformation will not be homogeneous either. So for each note, you will RECORD a different color from the one your ears would have heard. (Let's call this sound "D")

So, what are we doing? Our project is about getting as close to "A" as possible. We worked the hall to minimize the differences between "A", "B" and "C". Then we developed a calibration to take care of the rest.

How do we know if we actually got to "A"? We are using our setup to record voice, piano, guitar and drums (I am taking the rock out of the list because the bass and the guitar are not acoustic instruments). These instruments are extremely different from each other. Yet, we are recording them all the same way. They could have all been recorded on the same take. The fact that the sound quality is transparent across all those instruments means we have been successful on achieving our goal of actually recording that "A" sound (call it "true" sound, "absolute" sound… you name it)
 

RayDunzl

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I've played all the material.

I think you've done a good job, per your criteria.

---

Comments:

---

Albéniz -the right hand is a bit heavy in parts - 1-3khz area a bit objectionable to me at times. Has some hardness in it.

Albéniz #3, first two minutes:

upload_2016-8-30_14-39-30.png



Debussy - better overall balance, not as loud as the Albéniz, so the problem may be the player (or my playback) and not the recording.

Deux Arabesques #2, first minute:

upload_2016-8-30_14-53-20.png


I found the Flamenco vocalist a bit odd-sounding, though it may simply be the style, with which I am less familiar. The guitar came through very well.

Flamenco 1 - guitar only prior to vocal:

upload_2016-8-30_14-31-23.png


Flamenco 1, continuation with two verses of vocal:

upload_2016-8-30_14-34-23.png




The drums have an unnatural accentuation in the lower frequencies

Drums 2

upload_2016-8-30_14-28-46.png



Rock - I've heard this sound before many times... playing in somebody's garage. Guitar is out of control. Guitar distortion effect masks other tones and the drum details. Sounds awful, and, well, truthful.


upload_2016-8-30_14-59-46.png



Rock 3:02 to 3:25, bass and drums prominent, guitar softly playing. I see (and hear) more tonality 60-800hz, obscured above by the guitar distortion. This section is listenable. Fire the guitarist (hope it wasn't you).

upload_2016-8-30_15-7-23.png



-----------------------------------
Piano Comparison

Hiromi Uehara - Place to Be - track#1 BQE - from CD
Loudly played piano solo
Live version on youTube here...

upload_2016-8-30_15-21-2.png



All tracks played at the same volume level setting, whatever it was, pretty much my "loud" set.

The gray line is the frequency response in my room, measured prior to the above playback, via an REW sweep. I have a hole in the bass.
 

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TBone

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damn, no spoiler alert. :D
 
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RayDunzl

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TBone

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Mario, thanks again, is it possible you could afford me the DL of the "Rock" recording?

Only heard Iberia on crappy computer so far, still sounds clean, I think I'll enjoy throwing this on main rig, given the chance.

The Iberia.Books DR ...
Analyzed: Luis Grané, piano. / Albéniz Iberia (Truthful Master v2.0)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR17 -5.01 dB -29.24 dB 6:48 01-Iberia. Book 1. 1 Evocación. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR13 -3.78 dB -22.62 dB 5:00 02-Iberia. Book 1. 2 El Puerto. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR15 -0.08 dB -21.46 dB 10:01 03-Iberia. Book 1. 3 El Corpus en Sevilla. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR14 -3.13 dB -23.07 dB 7:36 04-Iberia. Book 2. 4 Rondeña. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR16 -2.18 dB -25.18 dB 10:43 05-Iberia. Book 2. 5 Almería. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR15 -0.11 dB -22.40 dB 5:48 06-Iberia. Book 2. 6 Triana. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR14 -1.55 dB -21.70 dB 7:55 07-Iberia. Book 3. 7 El Albaicín. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR15 -1.62 dB -22.89 dB 7:55 08-Iberia. Book 3. 8 El Polo. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR15 -0.09 dB -20.19 dB 7:55 09-Iberia. Book 3. 9 Lavapiés. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR13 -2.36 dB -20.37 dB 6:07 10-Iberia. Book 4. 10 Málaga. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR14 -2.84 dB -23.78 dB 11:56 11-Iberia. Book 4. 11 Jerez. (Truthful Master v2.0)
DR15 -0.32 dB -19.75 dB 6:45 12-Iberia. Book 4. 12 Eritaña. (Truthful Master v2.0)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Sal1950

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WOW Ray. How can I ever follow that. :(
Mario, I did a quick re-cofig of my setup to provide the shortest pure stereo signal path but am unable to get the recommended distance between my speakers, rooms just too dang small. I've listened thru the Cabrera album a few times now and find the pinpoint imaging and sense of air/space around the piano incredible. For sure the purest solo piano recording I've heard.
I'm wondering what you feel the peak/average SPLs at the listener/mic position was? I'd find it entertaining to try and reproduce the live levels as much as possible to see how that effects the other details of reproduction.
I've listened to the Iberia album just briefly, I found the Cabrera music much more involving, but that's just personal music taste. I'm sure the SQ on it is at least the equal.
I'll try to get around to auditioning the short samples soon.
It's been a kick being involved in the PlayClassics evolution even in such a minor manner, Thanks.
Sal
 

fas42

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Mario, thanks for providing these! Based on Ray's comments, I would appreciate hearing the Rock, Drums and Albeniz tracks, if possible ...

Best,
 

RayDunzl

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I'm wondering what you feel the peak/average SPLs at the listener/mic position was?

I realize you didn't ask me (or maybe you did), but this is my playback level:

upload_2016-8-30_21-5-28.png


For the first 2 and a half minutes of Iberia #3 measured on the top of the couch where my ears would be if I didn't nod off:
Leq - 78
LZ slow max 86.1
LZ slow min - room noise level here - 51.8 LA slow min is 36.5
LZ peak - 99.4 in the first couple of minutes, 101.3 somewhere later in the piece since it is still playing and I look at the display again

Definitions of Leq etc here...

The numbers are from REW, which calibrates itself to the UMIK-1, and agrees closely with a hand held SPL meter, so, it's the best I can do for any pretense of accuracy.
 
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