not sure how are you going to make that gruesome stuff "fun", but +100 for the message/spiritABX is fun! At least when there is a chance to score positive outcomes.
That should be the message.
not sure how are you going to make that gruesome stuff "fun", but +100 for the message/spiritABX is fun! At least when there is a chance to score positive outcomes.
That should be the message.
it doesn't really add a third. The X is either A or B. Harman doesn't use them for speakers because ABX is a test for difference (or identity, to put it another way), not preference among things that do differ.Listening tests are tough to get right, adding an X to the selections make it worse.
Harmon does A/B listening tests for their speaker tests for good reason.
Add a third and people minds start to melt
- Rich
After reading about ABX testing here I finally took the time to compare 2 amps which were quite different (tube 60 SINAD, SS 105 SINAD). This did take quite a bit of DIY setting up especially because I didn't want to switch the tube amp into "open" so instead when the tube amp was switched out it went to a dummy load. Eventually I got to where I had instant level matched switching. You can read about it all you want but actually experiencing the hopelessness (at least for me) of hearing any difference between these 2 radically different amps really gave me complete confidence about where to focus attention (speakers and room and recordings) and how much BS and bias there is regarding the electronic components. It would be nice if everyone who comes here could easily be given a chance to experience this for themselves but unfortunately that is not going to happen as the set up is quite involved. I wonder if someone with good speakers and a good microphone made level matched recordings of different amps, DAC's, cables, etc. and let people try to ABX them if that would be a practical way to get people to open their minds.
it doesn't really add a third. The X is either A or B. Harman doesn't use them for speakers because ABX is a test for difference (or identity, to put it another way), not preference among things that do differ.
An ABX test is a method of comparing two choices of sensory stimuli to identify detectable differences between them. A subject is presented with two known samples (sample A, the first reference, and sample B, the second reference) followed by one unknown sample X that is randomly selected from either A or B. The subject is then required to identify X as either A or B. If X cannot be identified reliably with a low p-value in a predetermined number of trials, then the null hypothesis cannot be rejected and it cannot be proven that there is a perceptible difference between A and B.
If you listen to the end of the fade out where its down 70db with 70db of gain above normal listening level you will probably be able to tell the difference between Cd and Hi Res. This is what Amir did. So does absolute transparency exist if you keep pushing this? IMHO this is a cheat, it does show the DUT limits, but has nothing to do with normal listening. Like taking 2 100 watt amps and turning them up to full volume with no source and comparing the hiss that is inaudable at normal levels. Does it matter?No-one has claimed otherwise. I am simply interested in what level of digital resolution is needed for absolute transparency in perfect listening conditions with trained listeners.
A resistive attenuation. There are some devices made for this purpose also.While it would probably not move the needle much for the skeptics I am curious about how one could "capture" the signal at the speaker terminals with an ADC so you could for instance capture the amp output at the speaker terminals for 2 different amps and see if you could hear or measure any difference between these "captures". Not sure the best way to do this without blowing things up.
If this is what he did, then it has no bearing on normal listening.If you listen to the end of the fade out where its down 70db with 70db of gain above normal listening level you will probably be able to tell the difference between Cd and Hi Res. This is what Amir did. So does absolute transparency exist if you keep pushing this? IMHO this is a cheat, it does show the DUT limits, but has nothing to do with normal listening. Like taking 2 100 watt amps and turning them up to full volume with no source and comparing the hiss that is inaudable at normal levels. Does it matter?
If you go to 19minutes in the post 16 video he explains this.If this is what he did, then it has no bearing on normal listening.
If you listen to the end of the fade out where its down 70db with 70db of gain above normal listening level you will probably be able to tell the difference between Cd and Hi Res. This is what Amir did. So does absolute transparency exist if you keep pushing this? IMHO this is a cheat, it does show the DUT limits, but has nothing to do with normal listening. Like taking 2 100 watt amps and turning them up to full volume with no source and comparing the hiss that is inaudable at normal levels. Does it matter?
I think with a good FAQ, that will be easy enough. Genuinely curious people will read the FAQ and reply with better-informed questions from that point on. Trolls will not read the FAQ, will reply with some variation on "Stop dodging the question and trying to lecture me, egghead!" and can be safely ignored from that point on.the trick is to identify whether they are genuinely curious, or just here to wreak havoc.
Did I hear wrong? Post 16 at 19 minutes@amirm can jump in but I do not believe that is correct. It was the sound of the keys.
If one acknowledges a difference, then this does not mean that one is correct. Perhaps for example, the difference is artifacts produced by the reconstruction filter. In that case, the proper solution is to use a different DAC or filter.
Unless one has bat hearing, any difference would have to be in the audible frequency range.
This is undeniable (for rational minds).
Something in the playback system accounts for the difference that may not point to the inherent superiority of HD-Audio.
If one simply wants the buy the best possible quality for a recording, that makes sense.
Unfortunately, that has more to do with the mastering than the format.
- Rich
Yep, I've pointed out the invalidity of these tests before.Unless one has bat hearing, any difference would have to be in the audible frequency range.
This is undeniable (for rational minds).
Something in the playback system accounts for the difference that may not point to the inherent superiority of HD-Audio.
Post 16 has a video linked in it.Did I hear wrong? Post 16 at 19 minutes
Okay, this wasn't jangling keys as someone else mentioned in this case. It was a music file in Archimago's hi-res listening test. And yes, he did use IEM's and found levels fading under -70 dbFS and pumped up the volume. I do think that is cheating. Amir even says without doing this he could hear no difference. I don't see this as any different than dumping a file in a sound editor and looking for differences. It has zero to do with any normal listening. Amir doesn't consider 16 bits transparent due to this, while I'd say for normal listening it is. One could say 24 bit encoding is transparent to levels beyond the ability of any hardware and 16 bits isn't, but if 16 bits gets enough humans can never tell then what have we gained?If you go to 19minutes in the post 16 video he explains this.
And around here the mods are pretty efficient. The real bad news sorts disappear quickly enough.true. But one can just use the "ignore" button.
The true havoc-masters can and should be managed by admins.
Much easier said then done, I know.
My ignore list is actually empty, I find that function kind of rude. And I might just be too curious for it..
Yep - hence we should all have speakers with impedance dips to 1 ohm, as they are more revealing...I've had this debate a couple of times. It goes like this:"the amplifiers only sound different with (insert name of B&W or Magico printer here) so obviously my speakers are more revealing"
ASR is very much a breath of fresh air compared to many other audio forums and I think most of us prefer things kept that way.And around here the mods are pretty efficient.