Marantz Cinema 50 AVR Review

[Deividas]

IMO, SINAD is a way to choose the best performing one given the features (including looks, size, power etc) you want. As long as the features, size, look,power you already have is enough I think there is no need to look for another one.

SINAD is one of the main things I look into when choosing AVR. The main one being room calibration. I have tried, Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer Onkyo and two Denon receivers, 2400h and 3700h. My room is really bad when it comes to acoustics in general and especially bass. So far only Audyssey improved bass and general sound so much, that I can actually the sound and bass is tight and deep using two subs now. YPAO is useless, Onkyo and Sony solutions are just there, they do nothing. The only reason I am considering the upgrade is the room correction solutions such as Dirac or ARC Genesis. Since Anthem receivers are too expensive for me, Im only considering Denon 3800H, Marantz Cinema 50 or Onkyo Rz50 when its gonna be released in EU. So SINAD IMO has to hit at least 90db so I would not consider another AVR to be a downgrade and the room correction is the second most important feature for me.

 

[peng]

Marantz 50 is 'measured' and has slightly better performance from figures perspective. So if you own Denon 3700 with AKM DAC, and don't need more than two subs, you will find 'upgrading' to be downgrading. Off course in real life you would be be the only person alive hearing difference between 87 SINAD and 97 SINAD. Only if you are looking for 'objective' notable (by measuring instrument) difference you definetely don't want to change.

I appreciate the fact that you qualified "better", with "slightly". I wonder if you noticed that we now have reasons for the slight difference, as pointed out by Amir and acknowledged by thin blue (see post#108 and #109).

That's why when we see "slight" differences such as a couple dBs in SINAD between tests, we cannot conclude that one is better than the other, unless both duts are done on the same bench, day, and the person doing the tests used the same instruments, methodology etc. to ensure the results are repeatable and can be directly compared with good accuracy. Based on the limited information available, I think the Marantz 50 and Denon AVR-X3800H's preamp/dac section are very comparable in metrics based on thin blue and Amir's measurements, practically one is not better than the other though there are almost always going to be some slight differences one way or another. You can measured two samples of the same model, and may still see a couple dB difference in certain things measured.

I am not trying to split hair. I agree and appreciate your observations, just want to take the opportunity to say that there are caveat when comparing test results in such situations.

 

[Chrise36]

SINAD is one of the main things I look into when choosing AVR. The main one being room calibration. I have tried, Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer Onkyo and two Denon receivers, 2400h and 3700h. My room is really bad when it comes to acoustics in general and especially bass. So far only Audyssey improved bass and general sound so much, that I can actually the sound and bass is tight and deep using two subs now. YPAO is useless, Onkyo and Sony solutions are just there, they do nothing. The only reason I am considering the upgrade is the room correction solutions such as Dirac or ARC Genesis. Since Anthem receivers are too expensive for me, Im only considering Denon 3800H, Marantz Cinema 50 or Onkyo Rz50 when its gonna be released in EU. So SINAD IMO has to hit at least 90db so I would not consider another AVR to be a downgrade and the room correction is the second most important feature for me.

We have to see how SINAD looks with audyssey active and all the channels driven and in various power output.

 

[peng]

Since Anthem receivers are too expensive for me, Im only considering Denon 3800H, Marantz Cinema 50 or Onkyo Rz50 when its gonna be released in EU. So SINAD IMO has to hit at least 90db so I would not consider another AVR to be a downgrade and the room correction is the second most important feature for me.

Agreed, I went with Anthem this time only because of the deep discount on the just discontinued AVM70 4K version. If the lower preamp/dac of the Denon/Marantz AVRs due to the downgraded DAC IC, you may want to consider the AVM70, considering there are very affordable class D power amps now. In my opinion it is not as good as Dirac Live overall, but it is good enough for me to not worry about missing D+M's upcoming DL, though I do miss Audyssey a lot, especially DEQ and to some extent, the Editor app that is more tweakable, at least for those who don't mind spending hours on tweaking.

 

[peng]

We have to see how SINAD looks with audyssey active and all the channels driven and in various power output.

Me too, but I would also want to see the same with DL and AARC. Regardless, if RC on makes SINAD worse, then we know something, but it won't change the fact that SINAD 100 dB with Audyssey on is still going to be better than SINAD 90 dB with Audyssey on, though neither may be bad enough to be audible. To me, SINAD, like power output, it is pretty much the higher the better whether you can hear the effects in your applications and there are going to be people who just want to buy the highest that they can afford.

 

[Vacceo]

What was the conclusion, Panther-wise, regarding the new and design polished Marantz Cinema 50?

That is up to you. You have the data there.

Me too, but I would also want to see the same with DL and AARC. Regardless, if RC on makes SINAD worse, then we know something, but it won't change the fact that SINAD 100 dB with Audyssey on is still going to be better than SINAD 90 dB with Audyssey on, though neither may be bad enough to be audible. To me, SINAD, like power output, it is pretty much the higher the better whether you can hear the effects in your applications and there are going to be people who just want to buy the highest that they can afford.

To me, it is a peace of mind thing. If the electronics are clean enough, i should look at the speakers or the source is something sound odd.

 

[OCA]

My Friends C50 and I don't know the price of this item.


View attachment 254253
View attachment 254254View attachment 254255

You can see what I saw. This is what it looks like.






View attachment 254256
4ohm, optical in, front LR, 20k
View attachment 254257
4ohm, optical in, front LR, 22.4k
View attachment 254258
4ohm, optical in, front LR, 40k

View attachment 254259
4ohm, rca in, front LR, 20k

View attachment 254260
4ohm, rca in, front LR, 22.4k

View attachment 254261
4ohm, rca in, front LR, 40k



View attachment 254262
8ohm, rca in, front LR, 20k
View attachment 254263
8ohm, rca in, front LR, 22,4k
View attachment 254264
8ohm, rca in, front LR, 40k

Why I don't need 8ohm info with 4ohm's.


View attachment 254267
4ohm, about 5w, rca in, front LR, gain
View attachment 254268
4ohm, about 5w, rca in, front LR, Fr
View attachment 254269
4ohm, about 5w, rca in, front LR, multitone

View attachment 254275View attachment 254276
4ohm, various points with output trimming.

View attachment 254277View attachment 254278View attachment 254279View attachment 254280
4ohm various frequency.

View attachment 254281View attachment 254282
2ohm, various points
At 6ohm mode of AVR output had limited.
Edit : At 4ohm mode of AVR output had limited.


View attachment 254283View attachment 254284
8ohm various range and points.
Anyway, For me with 4ohm & 2ohm data, 8ohm seems no use.

You can check detailed settings and data with project file and viewer(Use Demo mode).

Data set

Marantz C50 AVR - Google Drive

drive.google.com

Viewer

APx500 Measurement Software (with .NET) - Audio Precision

Version8.0.4 Size460 MB Create DateNovember 4, 2022 Last UpdateNovember 21, 2023 Version 8.0.4 is the current release of APx500 audio measurement software. APx500 software version 8.0.4 adds new enhancements suited to a wide range of audio test applications, whether analog, … Continue reading →

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Dear Amir,


Is it possible to understand the presence of "crosstalk" between channels from these measurements? The reason I am asking is a lot of people with Denon/Marantz receivers (interestingly not all of them) measuring their speakers with REW can see the impulse peak of the acoustic reference chirp produced by the center speaker (red circle below):

This is quite useful to measure the exact distance of the speaker to the measurement microphone however it should not be there. What do you think?

 

[Thomas_A]

SINAD is one of the main things I look into when choosing AVR. The main one being room calibration. I have tried, Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer Onkyo and two Denon receivers, 2400h and 3700h. My room is really bad when it comes to acoustics in general and especially bass. So far only Audyssey improved bass and general sound so much, that I can actually the sound and bass is tight and deep using two subs now. YPAO is useless, Onkyo and Sony solutions are just there, they do nothing. The only reason I am considering the upgrade is the room correction solutions such as Dirac or ARC Genesis. Since Anthem receivers are too expensive for me, Im only considering Denon 3800H, Marantz Cinema 50 or Onkyo Rz50 when its gonna be released in EU. So SINAD IMO has to hit at least 90db so I would not consider another AVR to be a downgrade and the room correction is the second most important feature for me.

As I see it features and size comes first. I I cannot fit the equipment at home I cannot use it. Features include power capacity, room corrections, pre out and no. of channels. Then frequency response linearity. Last noise and distortion. Below THD+N -85 dB I would not hear any difference.

 

[Brambo67]

I appreciate the fact that you qualified "better", with "slightly". I wonder if you noticed that we now have reasons for the slight difference, as pointed out by Amir and acknowledged by thin blue (see post#108 and #109).

That's why when we see "slight" differences such as a couple dBs in SINAD between tests, we cannot conclude that one is better than the other, unless both duts are done on the same bench, day, and the person doing the tests used the same instruments, methodology etc. to ensure the results are repeatable and can be directly compared with good accuracy. Based on the limited information available, I think the Marantz 50 and Denon AVR-X3800H's preamp/dac section are very comparable in metrics based on thin blue and Amir's measurements, practically one is not better than the other though there are almost always going to be some slight differences one way or another. You can measured two samples of the same model, and may still see a couple dB difference in certain things measured.

I am not trying to split hair. I agree and appreciate your observations, just want to take the opportunity to say that there are caveat when comparing test results in such situations.

I agree with your conclusions and don't think it is about splitting hair.

Me too, but I would also want to see the same with DL and AARC. Regardless, if RC on makes SINAD worse, then we know something, but it won't change the fact that SINAD 100 dB with Audyssey on is still going to be better than SINAD 90 dB with Audyssey on, though neither may be bad enough to be audible. To me, SINAD, like power output, it is pretty much the higher the better whether you can hear the effects in your applications and there are going to be people who just want to buy the highest that they can afford.

And I do agree the 'higher the better'...

Still the rating of a device with so many functions and characteristics I belief, should be based on more than SINAD alone. Even though I can see you could argue it is reflecting the ability of a supplier to optimize all the individual functions of the device. In the case of an AVR I belief SINAD of around 85 dB, of course preferably higher, should do the job. Particularly because they mostly are used to play multi-channel which isn't the best way to experience music in a 'high end' manner anyway.... An AVR should offer many channels, good wattage, user friendly user interface, have many inputs, flexibility to function as pre-pro etc. etc. I mentioned this before, I use a simple Topping DAC to play the High Res music from Apple Music if I feel the need to. I think (very) high SINAD is for people having the best high end material and playing SACD's.... Also interesting; many 'purists' use tube amp's and play vinyl... Talk about noise and distortion... I joined this forum because I'm interested in the science behind the machine. I do not think people should be led to belief SINAD, particularly in the inaudible spectrum, is the way to judge these AVR/AVC devices by.

 

[peng]

I agree with your conclusions and don't think it is about splitting hair.

And I do agree the 'higher the better'...

Still the rating of a device with so many functions and characteristics I belief, should be based on more than SINAD alone. Even though I can see you could argue it is reflecting the ability of a supplier to optimize all the individual functions of the device. In the case of an AVR I belief SINAD of around 85 dB, of course preferably higher, should do the job. Particularly because they mostly are used to play multi-channel which isn't the best way to experience music in a 'high end' manner anyway.... An AVR should offer many channels, good wattage, user friendly user interface, have many inputs, flexibility to function as pre-pro etc. etc. I mentioned this before, I use a simple Topping DAC to play the High Res music from Apple Music if I feel the need to. I think (very) high SINAD is for people having the best high end material and playing SACD's.... Also interesting; many 'purists' use tube amp's and play vinyl... Talk about noise and distortion... I joined this forum because I'm interested in the science behind the machine. I do not think people should be led to belief SINAD, particularly in the inaudible spectrum, is the way to judge these AVR/AVC devices by.

I don't look at SINAD only either. To me, if it is lower than 80 to 85 dB under the worst condition, then I would be a liittle concern. Otherwise we should look at other metrics as well.

I like Amir's because he measures a lot more than SINAD.

 

[Carycinema]

So I own the Cinema 50 and I am deciding to return due to not being happy with the sound of it. What is really confirming my decision is I posted a question on Marantz site under Cinema 50, it was approved but they then deleted because I do not see it on the site. My question was what Dacs did they use and I attached my question on this post for anyone to view. To me it's very telling that they are avoiding the question and deleted so no one sees it. What are your guys thoughts on this?
Thanks

 

[-pekr-]

I recently acquired Marantz Cinema 50 and put it against the cca 4 years old Denon x3500h. The story is quite easy - I never liked x3500h for its stereo performance, especially its streamer. Later on, I found it was quite dependant upon the source. TV apps (YT, Spotify), CD, were better than ibuilt streamer, but not perfect either in stereo.

As I was thinking about the upgrade, I found out that the new x3800h costs 2.2 times more and did not measure well on ASR. I might still prefer just one device and thought I would go "ultimate" with the Cinema 50. The other option was to keep x3500h and add Marantz 40n or Denon pma-1700ne amp for stereo, but keeping x3500h just for the center + surround channels sounded line an overhead to me.

My speaker setup is Monitor Autodio Silver 200, at 5.0 recently. My attic room is not properly treated - hardfloors with just small carpet, skewed wall, etc.

So here are my unscientific findings:

1. Cinema 50 does not come with any freakin' stickers at least, compared to Denon!
2. Cinema 50 does not have diode for the on/off button. What a let down.
3. I also thought that the panel is underlit from left/right side. It does look so on most marketing photos. Well, it is not. So the only thing you see in a dark room is small porthole with just little info, which you can't read from more than 2 meters.
4. Front panel seems to be plastic, though some sources claim otherwise. But the worst thing is, that it is a fingerprint magnet!
5. Sound in overal - so far, it sounds a bit brighter than my Denon, which kind of sounded dull to me for music, and voices. Denon had some punch for movies, but maybe I just need to get used to the new sound signature.
6. The bass - I know that I don't have sub, and maybe that was a wrong decision, though I always found MAs 200 towers having good bass. So far, bass on the Cinema 50 is lacking, muddy, not clean.
7. Soundstage and clarity - it is bigger, and I can hear more details, than what I was used to with the Denon. It better should be, as Cinema 50 costs 3 times the original price of my x3500h.

So - is it worth it? I just don't know - no wow effect on me. I need to do few more calibration attempts and am thinking of trying to add a sub, to finally get to 5.1. Might improve the sound, but would do so even for my old Denon. Not sure how much better sometning like Marantz 40n would be and also not sure it is worth a hassle to have another unit (which could solve my stereo reuqirements), but keeping Denon for just 3 channels.

 

[peng]

I recently acquired Marantz Cinema 50 and put it against the cca 4 years old Denon x3500h. The story is quite easy - I never liked x3500h for its stereo performance, especially its streamer. Later on, I found it was quite dependant upon the source. TV apps (YT, Spotify), CD, were better than ibuilt streamer, but not perfect either in stereo.

As I was thinking about the upgrade, I found out that the new x3800h costs 2.2 times more and did not measure well on ASR. I might still prefer just one device and thought I would go "ultimate" with the Cinema 50. The other option was to keep x3500h and add Marantz 40n or Denon pma-1700ne amp for stereo, but keeping x3500h just for the center + surround channels sounded line an overhead to me.

My speaker setup is Monitor Autodio Silver 200, at 5.0 recently. My attic room is not properly treated - hardfloors with just small carpet, skewed wall, etc.

So here are my unscientific findings:

1. Cinema 50 does not come with any freakin' stickers at least, compared to Denon!
2. Cinema 50 does not have diode for the on/off button. What a let down.
3. I also thought that the panel is underlit from left/right side. It does look so on most marketing photos. Well, it is not. So the only thing you see in a dark room is small porthole with just little info, which you can't read from more than 2 meters.
4. Front panel seems to be plastic, though some sources claim otherwise. But the worst thing is, that it is a fingerprint magnet!
5. Sound in overal - so far, it sounds a bit brighter than my Denon, which kind of sounded dull to me for music, and voices. Denon had some punch for movies, but maybe I just need to get used to the new sound signature.
6. The bass - I know that I don't have sub, and maybe that was a wrong decision, though I always found MAs 200 towers having good bass. So far, bass on the Cinema 50 is lacking, muddy, not clean.
7. Soundstage and clarity - it is bigger, and I can hear more details, than what I was used to with the Denon. It better should be, as Cinema 50 costs 3 times the original price of my x3500h.

So - is it worth it? I just don't know - no wow effect on me. I need to do few more calibration attempts and am thinking of trying to add a sub, to finally get to 5.1. Might improve the sound, but would do so even for my old Denon. Not sure how much better sometning like Marantz 40n would be and also not sure it is worth a hassle to have another unit (which could solve my stereo reuqirements), but keeping Denon for just 3 channels.

I tried the Denon X3400H a few years ago in my stereo 2 channel system, and it sound amazingly transparent compared to the Parasound A21 with Cambridge Audio preamp I used in that room. So, unless you can sell it for $500 or so, I would suggest you try it on a secondary 2 channels system in a bedroom, den or something. For movies, the Cinema 50 is 5 years newer and 3X the price as you said it better sound better.

 

[peng]

So I own the Cinema 50 and I am deciding to return due to not being happy with the sound of it. What is really confirming my decision is I posted a question on Marantz site under Cinema 50, it was approved but they then deleted because I do not see it on the site. My question was what Dacs did they use and I attached my question on this post for anyone to view. To me it's very telling that they are avoiding the question and deleted so no one sees it. What are your guys thoughts on this?
Thanks

They don't like that kind of questions unless the parts/components you asked happened to be something they upgraded.

 

[Carycinema]

They don't like that kind of questions unless the parts/components you asked happened to be something they upgraded.

Thank you for that. That's why I am voting against by returning it. The sound is better in my old Denon 3400 and a big part has to be due to the change to inferior dacs. It's not cheap and to end up going backwards compared to past years to me is so unacceptable. We all work hard for our money and based on their non-transparency, they don't deserve it.

I tried the Denon X3400H a few years ago in my stereo 2 channel system, and it sound amazingly transparent compared to the Parasound A21 with Cambridge Audio preamp I used in that room. So, unless you can sell it for $500 or so, I would suggest you try it on a secondary 2 channels system in a bedroom, den or something. For movies, the Cinema 50 is 5 years newer and 3X the price as you said it better sound better.

The Denon 3400 which the Cinema was replacing to me sounds better so I am returning the Cinema 50. I am going to try the Denon 4800H but I fear it will be the same outcome due to the poor Dac choice they used. If not I am saving more money to buy an Anthem.

 

[peng]

Thank you for that. That's why I am voting against by returning it. The sound is better in my old Denon 3400 and a big part has to be due to the change to inferior dacs. It's not cheap and to end up going backwards compared to past years to me is so unacceptable. We all work hard for our money and based on their non-transparency, they don't deserve it.

The Denon 3400 which the Cinema was replacing to me sounds better so I am returning the Cinema 50. I am going to try the Denon 4800H but I fear it will be the same outcome due to the poor Dac choice they used. If not I am saving more money to buy an Anthem.

As has been mentioned many times, perceived sound quality is a highly subjective matter. To me, the Anthem AVM70 subjectively seems better for movies, but no perceivable difference in music listening when compared to the Denon 4400 it replaced. It was not possible to do side by side AB, let alone blind or sighted so I am only going by feeling, pretty much useless comments I guess, but, as you alluded to, the Anthem AVRs/AVPs do have much better DAC, and likely preamp ICs so I must have been biased, to begin with.

 

[Carycinema]

As has been mentioned many times, perceived sound quality is a highly subjective matter. To me, the Anthem AVM70 subjectively seems better for movies, but no perceivable difference in music listening when compared to the Denon 4400 it replaced. It was not possible to do side by side AB, let alone blind or sighted so I am only going by feeling, pretty much useless comments I guess, but, as you alluded to, the Anthem AVRs/AVPs do have much better DAC, and likely preamp ICs so I must have been biased, to begin with.

Thanks for the reply. I didn't state the model but if I go with Anthem it's going to be the AVM90. I would just have to stay with my Denon 3400 and Cary Cinema 12 for a little longer saving money for it. I was hoping I could be happy with Cinema 50 but that didn't pan out. Do you think the Denon4800H would possibly sound better or not much different? I did use external amps with Cinema 50 in preamp mode (PS Audio BHK 250 and Cary Cinema 5) but I wasn't happy with sound.

 

[peng]

Thanks for the reply. I didn't state the model but if I go with Anthem it's going to be the AVM90. I would just have to stay with my Denon 3400 and Cary Cinema 12 for a little longer saving money for it. I was hoping I could be happy with Cinema 50 but that didn't pan out. Do you think the Denon4800H would possibly sound better or not much different? I did use external amps with Cinema 50 in preamp mode (PS Audio BHK 250 and Cary Cinema 5) but I wasn't happy with sound.

If you use it as preamp/dac, I have no reason whatsoever to think the Denon would sound any better. I also find it hard to believe the Cinema 50 in preamp mode would not sound as good with the 3400 or even any of the MRX AVRs. If I were to guess, there is something else causing it, one being you may also be biased.

The AVM90 has the ESS real flag ship class DAC chip, so I would assume Anthem would have matched it with the better volume chip and opamps too. I prefer the 90 too but as an engineer used to focus a lot on value, just couldn't justify paying almost C$5,500 (actually closer to C$6,000 because I opted for the discontinued 4K version) more for the better chips, when the one notch down chips already have specs well clear of any threshold of hearing.

One thing to keep in mind though, is that if you have been using Audyssey and like DEQ, then you will miss it, along with a few more nice bells and whistles (or important features to some) that you won't find in Anthem's.

 

[Carycinema]

If you use it as preamp/dac, I have no reason whatsoever to think the Denon would sound any better. I also find it hard to believe the Cinema 50 in preamp mode would not sound as good with the 3400 or even any of the MRX AVRs. If I were to guess, there is something else causing it, one being you may also be biased.

The AVM90 has the ESS real flag ship class DAC chip, so I would assume Anthem would have matched it with the better volume chip and opamps too. I prefer the 90 too but as an engineer used to focus a lot on value, just couldn't justify paying almost C$5,500 (actually closer to C$6,000 because I opted for the discontinued 4K version) more for the better chips, when the one notch down chips already have specs well clear of any threshold of hearing.

One thing to keep in mind though, is that if you have been using Audyssey and like DEQ, then you will miss it, along with a few more nice bells and whistles (or important features to some) that you won't find in Anthem's.

Biased possibly. I just know when listening to it, I do think it sounds good but the more I listen to movies I feel there is a veil/something missing and feel blah about the sound. The dynamics seem much softer and I think that's the biggest issue for me. I don't use it for music, just movies. Music I use a Cary Slp98 F1 version with BHK 250 amp. Maybe I am expecting too much from it? I like the Audyssey, upgrade path to Dirac and 4 sub output. The Hdmi video worked flawless. I am going to try the 4800H because I have nothing to lose being able to return it. You never know it may just work out better for me. I originally purchased an Onkyo RZ50 and really loved the sound but when you changed source or stopped movie it would trigger my BHK250 amp to go into protective mode. I think it is something with the rca output design. The Soundstage on it was very open, big and detailed. I was bummed out that it didn't play well with my amp.

 

[rexian]

Biased possibly. I just know when listening to it, I do think it sounds good but the more I listen to movies I feel there is a veil/something missing and feel blah about the sound. The dynamics seem much softer and I think that's the biggest issue for me. I don't use it for music, just movies. Music I use a Cary Slp98 F1 version with BHK 250 amp. Maybe I am expecting too much from it? I like the Audyssey, upgrade path to Dirac and 4 sub output. The Hdmi video worked flawless. I am going to try the 4800H because I have nothing to lose being able to return it. You never know it may just work out better for me. I originally purchased an Onkyo RZ50 and really loved the sound but when you changed source or stopped movie it would trigger my BHK250 amp to go into protective mode. I think it is something with the rca output design. The Soundstage on it was very open, big and detailed. I was bummed out that it didn't play well with my amp.

I find it hard to believe Marantz would cripple their mid-range AVRs by selecting DACs that will produce audibly inferior sound but my experience is not very different from yours. I am coming from an 8-yr old Denon X4100W and in 2-channel music C50 didn't wow me. Before disconnecting the Denon I did listen to a few high resolution songs and then I played those on C50 and I couldn't tell any difference. Both in stereo as well as pure direct. It wasn't a true ABX test as the tests were about an hour apart and I was relying on memory but that also told me even if there was difference it was minor and not worth choosing one over the other.

I don't need the extra power of X4800H but if it has some audible improvements over X4100W (and hence over C50), wonder if that's a better buy but D+M's pricing is certainly confusing...