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Active vs. passive [loud]speakers

andreasmaaan

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https://www.hifitest.de/test/bildergalerie/lautsprecher_surround/canton-gle_4962_-_51-set_16204/5 vs. http://www.i-fidelity.net/testberichte/hifi/canton-gle-4962-bt-set/seite-5.html - you can see the bass roll-off starts at 65Hz on the passive speakers and around 30Hz on the active speakers. Also, trebles are more flat sounding on the active speakers too. Inside there are absolutely identical drivers, what is different is the amplifiers, filters (cross-over frequencies perhaps) and the DSP.

That’s not an apples to apples comparison.

Most importantly, the passive 2-ways (Standlautsprecher) are being compared to the active 3-ways.

Moreover, the active speakers are measured in-room vs the passives anecoichally. In-room measurements are always going to boost and extend the bass.
 

trl

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Nope, it's Canton GLE 496.2 vs. Canton GLE 496.2 BT. These are identical speakers, just passive vs. active. Feel free to find other measurements if you like, but I know for sure about the different measurements about these speakers since last year when I purchased the passive ones.

Also, read some SVS technical papers too, also some measurements as well. You'll see what a good active amp combined with DSP can do from speaker drivers. You can resolve deeps and peaks related to drivers and case resonant frequencies, but you can also correct phase too.

At least theoretically, well engineered active speakers with DSP built-in could do wonders.
 

andreasmaaan

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Also, read some SVS technical papers too, also some measurements as well. You'll see what a good active amp combined with DSP can do from speaker drivers. You can resolve deeps and peaks related to drivers and case resonant frequencies, but you can also correct phase too.

At least theoretically, well engineered active speakers with DSP built-in could do wonders.

If you read my previous posts you'll see that I mostly agree with these statements :) My issue is with the examples you've given and what you attribute to them (e.g. that the same drivers in the same box with the same port - but with an active crossover - can achieve a full octave of extra bass extension, which is frankly impossible).

EDIT: correction of my previous post! You're right that it is the same speaker being measured in both cases. My bad. Still, the differences are attributable to the differing measurement conditions. Active DSP simply can't extend the bass response of a ported speaker because the port tuning frequency places a lower limit on bass extension for physical reasons.
 
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trl

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I'm not a German person, but Google translate says this:
"Frequency Response Floorstanding Speakers: Balanced floorstanding speaker with very good coverage".

I do understand the room differences, thanks for the notice. My assertion about well-engineered active speakers and DSP could be better than passive speakers still stands.
 

andreasmaaan

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I'm not a German person, but Google translate says this:
"Frequency Response Floorstanding Speakers: Balanced floorstanding speaker with very good coverage".

I do understand the room differences, thanks for the notice. My assertion about well-engineered active speakers and DSP could be better than passive speakers still stands.

@trl I edited my previous post, see above - thanks. The sticking point is the idea that an active crossover can improve a ported speaker's bass extension. That's just not possible. Otherwise, like I said, you have no argument from me that active speakers are capable of superior performance.
 

maty

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CANTON GLE 496.2

[Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/zespoly-glosnikowe/2967-canton-gle-496-2

to English: https://translate.google.com/transl...ereo/zespoly-glosnikowe/2967-canton-gle-496-2

51338-canton-gle-496-2-audiocompl-fot2.jpg


51337-canton-gle-496-2-audiocompl-fot1.jpg
 

Soniclife

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The sticking point is the idea that an active crossover can improve a ported speaker's bass extension.
It can be done with DSP, up to a SPL limit, and with increased distortion. The Devialet SAM system extends below the port tuning for example.
 

andreasmaaan

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It can be done with DSP, up to a SPL limit, and with increased distortion. The Devialet SAM system extends below the port tuning for example.

Ok sure, a marginal increase in bass extension can be made at significant cost, but that claim I was responding to was that the DSP extended bass response an octave below the port tuning frequency.
 

Frank Dernie

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Ok sure, a marginal increase in bass extension can be made at significant cost, but that claim I was responding to was that the DSP extended bass response an octave below the port tuning frequency.
If you own a Devialet amp the cost is zero. Unfortunately my speakers have never had a SAM profile.
OTOH some of the changes in low frequency extension and accuracy are marked.

https://www.devialet.com/en-gb/expert-pro-sam

I do own these and have tried this but don't use these speakers normally in the largish room where my Devialet amps are.

https://www.devialet.com/en-gb/expert-pro-sam-ready-speakers/kef/ls50/
 
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andreasmaaan

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If you own a Devialet amp the cost is zero. Unfortunately my speakers have never had a SAM profile.
OTOH some of the changes in low frequency extension and accuracy are marked.

https://www.devialet.com/en-gb/expert-pro-sam

I do own these and have tried this but don't use these speakers normally in the largish room where my Devialet amps are.

https://www.devialet.com/en-gb/expert-pro-sam-ready-speakers/kef/ls50/

By "cost" I meant increased distortion and reduced SPL, not money.

BTW, I 100% believe that ported speakers, unless the tuning frequency is very low (i.e. below the lowest frequencies contained in any reproduced signal), should not be used without DSP. And I 100% agree that in any conceivable case, DSP can be used to improve the bass performance of any speaker.

I'm simply pointing out that with a ported speaker, the operation of the port results in a fairly absolute lower limit on the frequency response. Below port tuning, (1) the woofer will flap around in an uncontrolled way and cause severe distortion or actually become damaged, and (2) the phase of the port's output will reverse relative to the phase of the woofer's output, resulting in cancellation that cannot be corrected digitally (since the phase of the two outputs cannot be controlled independently).
 
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Frank Dernie

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By "cost" I meant increased distortion, not money.
The waveform correction makes leads me to believe there is less distortion. The correction is not just for extension, and the thermal and mechanical limits of the driver are measured and included in the correction to avoid damage.
This will certainly mean the lowest frequencies will not be available at higher volumes than the driver can take, which may be noticable with small speakers.
The overblown bass of quite a few big speakers is corrected too, so it isn't just smaller speakers that benefit from the correction.
 

andreasmaaan

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The waveform correction makes leads me to believe there is less distortion. The correction is not just for extension, and the thermal and mechanical limits of the driver are measured and included in the correction to avoid damage.
This will certainly mean the lowest frequencies will not be available at higher volumes than the driver can take, which may be noticable with small speakers.
The overblown bass of quite a few big speakers is corrected too, so it isn't just smaller speakers that benefit from the correction.

I agree. See my edited post #51 above :) DSP may greatly improve the bass performance of virtually any speaker, but there remain physical limits.
 

andreasmaaan

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I just thought I'd use some sims to explain a bit better what I mean here.

All the following is based on a 5.5" SB Acoustics SBNRXC30-4 woofer in a 6-litre ported box with a tuning frequency of 55Hz. This is an affordable, well-performing small midwoofer designed to be used in compact standmount speakers.

Shown is the frequency response of the woofer (black) and port (grey):

1554562027071.png

And now the summed response (black) and port (grey):

1554562106728.png

As you can see, the summed response actually rolls off earlier than the port does. This is because, below the port tuning frequency, the output of the port is out of phase with the output from the woofer. There is absolutely no escaping this effect in a ported speaker.

You can also see that the -3dB point is at about 58Hz, which is just a shade above the port tuning frequency.

Next, here is the diaphragm displacement vs frequency at this SPL (96dB). This woofer has an Xmax of 5mm, so at 96dB, we are just a shade below Xmax at all frequencies from the port tuning frequency up.

1554562289160.png

However, although the woofer does not displace at all at the port tuning frequency, is displaces hugely below it. This is inevitably the case with any passive ported speaker, and is the main argument against them IMHO. Note, however, that displacement at the port tuning frequency and above is actually significantly less than it would be if the box were sealed - but that's another story.

Now this huge displacement below port tuning is definitely a problem. Fortunately, we can tame it quite easily with DSP, firstly by implementing a high pass filter just below the port tuning frequency. In red we see an example effect on our amplitude response of a 4th order high pass filter at 37Hz. Our -3dB has changed very little, but there is now far less stress on the woofer (an excellent thing of course).

1554562671195.png

And here is this filter's effect on diaphragm displacement (as you can see, the woofer will now not extend past Xmax at any frequency at our orginal SPL of 96dB).

1554562740605.png

So we've now used a high-pass filter to hugely reduce diaphragm displacement and resultant distortion, with almost no cost. That's the first and greatest advantage of using DSP to manage the woofer in a ported speaker.

But what if we want to actually lower the -3dB below what it was when the speaker was passive?

We could move our DSP high pass filter lower in frequency and then use some EQ to boost the frequencies between the high pass filter and the port tuning frequency to improve the bass extension. Perhaps we want to aim for a -3dB that is 18Hz lower in frequency, at about 40Hz (this is less of an extension than Devialet claims on the similarly-sized LS50, FWIW):

Here's our resultant SPL:

1554563080982.png

That's great at first glance. But now look at the diaphragm displacement (which FWIW is basically a direct indicator of nonlinear distortion):

1554563148049.png

That type of filter/EQ - even after high-pass filtering - results in a diaphragm displacement of 25mm in the region between the high pass filter and the port tuning frequency (i.e. where we've had to apply the EQ boost). 25mm is 5x this woofer's Xmax. Obviously this is an impossible amount of stress on the woofer.

Our only option if we want to keep the -3dB at 40Hz and not massively increase distortion and almost certainly permanently destroy the woofer, then, is to reduce SPL until the driver stays within Xmax.

Reducing the voltage to the driver by a factor of about 5 or 6 now gives us this diaphragm displacement:

1554563421181.png

That translates into an SPL around 15dB lower than we had with a -3dB point of 58Hz:

1554563475677.png

In other words, we've gained 18Hz of bass extension at the expense of 15dB of SPL. Or, alternatively, our speaker will now produce the same amount of bass distortion at 81dB as it did previously at 96dB.

We're not finished though. Sophisticated DSP can raise and lower the bass extension (i.e. change the corner frequency of the high pass filter) depending on the voltage of the input signal. This is (I suspect) exactly what the Devialet does. But it can't do much, if anything, to reduce the massively increased distortion at any given SPL that results from pushing the -3dB point below the port tuning frequency.

To illustrate, here is the driver displacement at 81dB before we lowered the -3dB point with a lower filter and bass boost:

1554565790794.png

That's 5 or 6 times less displacement, which will translate into 5 or 6 times lower distortion. Such is the cost of trying to make a ported speaker produce sound below the port tuning frequency.

In other words, if this is going to be attempted, it will have to be done extremely conservatively and carefully to avoid increasing the distortion the speaker produces by 5-fold or more.

So, when I see Devialet claim that their SAM system can push the bass extension of an LS50 (which is also a small ported speaker with IIRC a 5.5" woofer) down from 44Hz to 28Hz, I do believe them, but at the same time, I can be certain that the price paid for this is a massive increase in distortion at any given SPL, plus either (a) a huge reduction in max SPL or (b) a -3dB point that rises rapidly as SPLs reach even moderate levels.

If we choose (b), at low levels the speaker will play lower (but with higher distortion), while at high levels the speaker's -3dB will return to what it would have been with our original high-pass filter just below the port tuning frequency.

Personally, if Devialet's statements about e.g. the LS50 are true, I think they have either gone too far for the sake of specsmanship, or (more likely I hope) they are only true at very low SPLs.

(IIRC, Devialet also implements limiting to ensure the driver never exceeds Xmax. This and a voltage-dependant variable high pass filter can basically be used complementarily to achieve the same purpose of protecting the woofer at moderate-high SPLs while letting it play lower at lower SPLs. The downside of limiting is of course that it is a form of compression and its implementation will therefore reduce dynamic range.)

In all cases, of course, we have a speaker that performs better than it would have if it were completely passive. But the ported design places a pretty hard limit on just how much extra performance can be squeezed out of it.
 
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Krunok

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So, when I see Devialet claim that their SAM system can push the bass extension of an LS50 (which is also a small ported speaker with IIRC a 5.5" woofer) down from 44Hz to 28Hz, I do believe them, but at the same time, I can be certain that the price paid for this is a massive increase in distortion at any given SPL, plus either (a) a huge reduction in max SPL or (b) a -3dB point that rises rapidly as SPLs reach even moderate levels.

If we choose (b), at low levels the speaker will play lower (but with higher distortion), while at high levels the speaker's -3dB will return to what it would have been with our original high-pass filter just below the port tuning frequency.

Personally, if Devialet's statements about e.g. the LS50 are true, I think they have either gone too far for the sake of specsmanship, or (more likely I hope) they are only true at very low SPLs.

(IIRC, Devialet also implements limiting to ensure the driver never exceeds Xmax. This and a variable high pass filter can basically be used complementarily to achieve the same outcome of protecting the woofer at moderate-high SPLs. The downside of limiting is of course that it is a form of compression and its implementation will therefore reduce dynamic range.)

In all cases, of course, we have a speaker that performs better than it would have if it were completely passive. But the ported design places a pretty hard limit on just how much extra performance can be squeezed out of it.


Here's the Devialet SAM data for my speakers:
https://www.devialet.com/en-ch/expert-pro-sam-ready-speakers/castle-acoustics/harlech/



The truth is my Harlechs can maybe play 22Hz but not really loud, not even moderately loud. :)
They can go down to 30Hz at moderate levels and quite loud down to 40Hz. And that's about it. Whatever you do you can't beat the laws of physics.
 

andreasmaaan

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Here's the Devialet SAM data for my speakers:
https://www.devialet.com/en-ch/expert-pro-sam-ready-speakers/castle-acoustics/harlech/



The truth is my Harlechs can maybe play 22Hz but not really loud, not even moderately loud. :)
They can go down to 30Hz at moderate levels and quite loud down to 40Hz. And that's about it. Whatever you do you can't beat the laws of physics.

TBH, this is really a case where the only sensible way to interpret Devialet's figures is specsmanship. I find implausible the idea that those speakers, with 2 small midwoofers, can play loud enough to even exceed the threshold of audibility at 22Hz, which is about 70dB in quiet (and inevitably higher in a typical home where there will be background noise):
400px-Lindos1.svg.png


I don't mean to come across as critical of Devialet's SAM system, however. All I've read about it indicates that it actually works very well and will offer huge benefits to anyone using passive speakers.

I just believe that the specs they give on bass extension must be for extremely low SPLs only, and that perhaps they would achieve better overall performance (lower distortion) if they gave up trying to achieve such specs - impossible to know without a huge suite of measurements though.
 

andreasmaaan

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I'm also struggling to understand what these squiggly lines represent:

1554567683046.png

Does anyone know?
 

Krunok

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TBH, this is really a case where the only sensible way to interpret Devialet's figures is specsmanship. I find the idea that those speakers, with 2 small midwoofers, can play loud enough to even exceed the threshold of audibility at 22Hz, which is about 70dB in quiet (and inevitably higher in a typical home where there will be background noise):
400px-Lindos1.svg.png


I don't mean to come across as critical of Devialet's SAM system, however. All I've read about it indicates that it actually works very well and will offer huge benefits to anyone using passive speakers.

I just believe that the specs they give on bass extension must be for extremely low SPLs only, and that perhaps they would achieve better overall performance (lower distortion) if they gave up trying to achieve such specs - impossible to know without a huge suite of measurements though.

You are absolutely right. I have just tried with 25Hz with amp at 100% volume and I need to come closer than 1 meter from the speaker to hear that sound.

31.5Hz is the lowest tone Harlechs can produce with usable loudness and that one I can hear at my LP which is app 4m from the speakers.
 

Soniclife

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I'm also struggling to understand what these squiggly lines represent:

View attachment 24561

Does anyone know?
It's meant to show that not only is amplitude fixed, but also group delay.

If I get a chance I'll try and post some nearfield measurements of my speakers with and without SAM, the subjective impression is a lot more bass, and to decent volumes, but if you play electronica with deep bass you can hear the high pass kicking in as the vol is increased.
 
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