Markaudio CHN 110 building and comparisons with Genelec 8340 SAM monitors

[Tangband]

Now home after visiting Umeå symphony orkestra playing ” The fire bird ” by Igor Stravinsky and music by Philip Glass .
Compairing at home - the sound is about the same on good recordings as I just experienced in the concert hall, and applauding after the concert sounds very natural on liverecordings.
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[Tangband]

The CHN70 is a very different driver than the CHN110, it's a smaller paper cone driver that was not that good, the CHN110 is a magnesium alloy cone, with a much better frame and magnet and a lot more neutral in sound. Not all Mark Audio drivers are good, some are among the best fullrange driver ou will find, but some are just rubbish. In that format the Alpair 7.3, 7MS or the CHR70 are a lot better. Also, both cabinets are backloaded horns with the horn on the back, which means they are very sensitive ot placement. If you put them to close or to far from the backwall, they will not sound good with any driver. And both designs were made for other drivers, not for this one, so the cabinet is not optimal for this driver.

And what is a fact, fullrange drivers will never be as neutral sounding as a multiway system, they got other qualities that some like and some not. If you were looking for a neutral hi fidelity speaker this ones are not for you.

I think the chn110 is very neutral sounding driver if one compares to how acoustical instruments sounds in a real concert hall .

With that said, you and I have almost the same HYPEX poweramp and if I remember correct - you use a valve preamplifier and I use an ” analog ” sounding dac before the poweramp.

So there might be some benefits with a slight system matching for this driver .

 

[WinWiz]

I think the chn110 is very neutral sounding driver if one compares to how acoustical instruments sounds in a real concert hall .

With that said, you and I have almost the same HYPEX poweramp and if I remember correct - you use a valve preamplifier and I use an ” analog ” sounding dac before the poweramp.

So there might be some benefits with a slight system matching for this driver .

Are you suggesting that your dac sounds similar to tube amp?

 

[Gahf]

Nice to hear about the chn70 and the beautiful looking boxes you have made.

In my opinion, If one get a bass reflex loaded speaker right, it is much easier to get a good and even bass than with many horn loaded constructions. I havent succeded in building a good horn, but it surely can be done with lots of trial and error and modifications.

Another thing to think about when constructing is the size of the room youre using the speakers in . Its not a good idea to tune a bassreflex loaded loudspeaker at 46 Hz If the room has a fundamental resonance (between two main walls) at the same frequency. The response will get a boomy bass sound in worse case. And you are in the ”musical tones” area.

Most normal music material has little musical tones below 41 Hz ( bassguitar:s lowest string is E ), so I tuned my chn110 lower, at 36 Hz . One exception is churchorgans.

Frequencies of Musical Notes, A4 = 440 Hz

Thanks. What you say is to the point. I have actually tuned this to 36 hz or so and the bass is quite good. I have also built an almost anechoic chamber using 4 layers additional walls in between the main walls, and this room and the outside terrace in my office are my measurement areas. I dont think the bass is boomy, and some of the good listeners feel the bass is alright, I still am not keen to hear these speakers for more than a couple of songs each time. Perhaps one day I will be able to make a perfect full range horn (if that is at all possible), till then, you are right, I am happy listening to my 4 way active speakers.

 

[Tangband]

Are you suggesting that your dac sounds similar to tube amp?

No , I dont

 

[Gahf]

The CHN70 is a very different driver than the CHN110, it's a smaller paper cone driver that was not that good, the CHN110 is a magnesium alloy cone, with a much better frame and magnet and a lot more neutral in sound. Not all Mark Audio drivers are good, some are among the best fullrange driver ou will find, but some are just rubbish. In that format the Alpair 7.3, 7MS or the CHR70 are a lot better. Also, both cabinets are backloaded horns with the horn on the back, which means they are very sensitive ot placement. If you put them to close or to far from the backwall, they will not sound good with any driver. And both designs were made for other drivers, not for this one, so the cabinet is not optimal for this driver.

And what is a fact, fullrange drivers will never be as neutral sounding as a multiway system, they got other qualities that some like and some not. If you were looking for a neutral hi fidelity speaker this ones are not for you.

My bad, the drivers are CHR70, never knew the difference till you pointed out and then immediately went and looked and they were CHR70. True, what you say.

 

[Waxx]

I think the chn110 is very neutral sounding driver if one compares to how acoustical instruments sounds in a real concert hall .

With that said, you and I have almost the same HYPEX poweramp and if I remember correct - you use a valve preamplifier and I use an ” analog ” sounding dac before the poweramp.

So there might be some benefits with a slight system matching for this driver .

I used it with and without the tube preamp (gear moves arround in my house, i like to change the config from time to time with the gear i have) and both ways it works well. But i prefer a bit harmonic distortion in my systems (subjective good) so i mostly use the tube preamp with it.

What is important with this driver is a amp that is too powerfull and has a higher damping factor. That last may be because it's a TL with a low tuning, a low damping factor amp enchange the bass, and then it becomes to much, but the best amp for this speaker that i have are the NCore (Audiophonics MPA-S125NC) class D amps i have, not the tubes, class A or even class AB transistor amps I also got.

The CHN110 TL was an experiment for me, not ment to replace my speakers, but more a test if i understood the math and mechanics of a TL system, by designing one myself. But the result is that good that i kept it in my listening room, even if the finish is rough and it's made of the cheapest mdf i could find. I'll rebuild it in good wood and finish it like it should in the futur. From subjective reports, the best commercial or open source design availeble are the Pencil or the Kewel design by Scott Lindgren (Scottmoose on DiyAudio). Both are just like mine a MLTL altough reflex builds with this driver are also good it seems.

But what is often the problem with these reports, is that people just drop in a driver in an existing cabinet that is not designed for it, and then complain that the driver sucks. That is not the driver, but the bad alignment of the cabinet that is not tuned to that driver. And here, most won't like that kind of systems, as they are not neutral low distortion, even when tuned right. It's a niche, that is not everybody's cup of tea...

 

[WinWiz]

I used it with and without the tube preamp (gear moves arround in my house, i like to change the config from time to time with the gear i have) and both ways it works well. But i prefer a bit harmonic distortion in my systems (subjective good) so i mostly use the tube preamp with it.

What is important with this driver is a amp that is too powerfull and has a higher damping factor. That last may be because it's a TL with a low tuning, a low damping factor amp enchange the bass, and then it becomes to much, but the best amp for this speaker that i have are the NCore (Audiophonics MPA-S125NC) class D amps i have, not the tubes, class A or even class AB transistor amps I also got.

The CHN110 TL was an experiment for me, not ment to replace my speakers, but more a test if i understood the math and mechanics of a TL system, by designing one myself. But the result is that good that i kept it in my listening room, even if the finish is rough and it's made of the cheapest mdf i could find. I'll rebuild it in good wood and finish it like it should in the futur. From subjective reports, the best commercial or open source design availeble are the Pencil or the Kewel design by Scott Lindgren (Scottmoose on DiyAudio). Both are just like mine a MLTL altough reflex builds with this driver are also good it seems.

But what is often the problem with these reports, is that people just drop in a driver in an existing cabinet that is not designed for it, and then complain that the driver sucks. That is not the driver, but the bad alignment of the cabinet that is not tuned to that driver. And here, most won't like that kind of systems, as they are not neutral low distortion, even when tuned right. It's a niche, that is not everybody's cup of tea...

Regarding damping factor. I measured one of my chn110 speakers with two different vintage amps. My old onkyo has a low damping factor of 20, while my old sonys damping is 50. They measured identical.
My chn110 speakers are based on Scotts design St. Helens, but modified with a front-facing port.
Scott actually stated the design assumes an amp with high damping factor. So I was a bit surprised that 50 vs 20 made zero difference.

 

[Waxx]

Regarding damping factor. I measured one of my chn110 speakers with two different vintage amps. My old onkyo has a low damping factor of 20, while my old sonys damping is 50. They measured identical.
My chn110 speakers are based on Scotts design St. Helens, but modified with a front-facing port.
Scott actually stated the design assumes an amp with high damping factor. So I was a bit surprised that 50 vs 20 made zero difference.

20 and 50 are both low damping factors for amps, most amps today (except tube amps) have damping factors in the the few hundreds, and i was told that a damping factor above 100 is needed to have no serious impact on the bass and be frequency neutral. The Ncore i have has a damping factor of about 1300 i thought.

 

[WinWiz]

When Damping factor reach 100 going any higher doesn't really matter because wires becomes the limit.
So going from 20 to 50 should change more than going from 50 to 150.

 

[MAB]

Regarding damping factor. I measured one of my chn110 speakers with two different vintage amps. My old onkyo has a low damping factor of 20, while my old sonys damping is 50. They measured identical.
My chn110 speakers are based on Scotts design St. Helens, but modified with a front-facing port.
Scott actually stated the design assumes an amp with high damping factor. So I was a bit surprised that 50 vs 20 made zero difference.

20 and 50 are both low damping factors for amps, most amps today (except tube amps) have damping factors in the the few hundreds, and i was told that a damping factor above 100 is needed to have no serious impact on the bass and be frequency neutral. The Ncore i have has a damping factor of about 1300 i thought.

Damping factor is not important in the way people think:
https://www.l-acoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/RS2015-Cable_Effects.pdf
I also attached "Damping, Damping Factor, and Damn Nonsense" pdf by Floyd Toole. Discussions about DF are mostly nonsense.

When Damping factor reach 100 going any higher doesn't really matter because wires becomes the limit.
So going from 20 to 50 should change more than going from 50 to 150.

Not quite, read the L-Acoustics paper:

“not necessary to go over 20” became “must be at least 20,” even though no conclusion had been made for values below 20.

The evolution of the Damping Factor must be high is a bad history lesson aided by lack of circuit knowledge.
In fact:

 

[WinWiz]

I actually do have a new fosi v3 that I could try for comparison, but I am pretty sure it would measure any different except at high frequencies where the v3 peaks with 8ohm speakers.
At high volume it would probably also clip.
I do think it's quite remarkable that two different amps both around 30 years old and as far is now never recapped measures identical.

 

[fineMen]

View attachment 310601

Messing with terms. What is an "Actual Over-All DF" actually? The caption tells that DF is limited by the connected voice coil which doesn't make any sense.

I agree that, alas, especially with exotic DIY stuff legend building is a wide spread tool to keep interest high. The real enthusiast knows how to detect unreasonable claims. Of course a DF of 20 is quite sufficient. A too high DF may indicate a high feedback device which might be prone to instability.

Coming back to the DF, once speakers were not voltage driven, but current driven. It is possible to succeed with DF = 0.

 

[Gahf]

Messing with terms. What is an "Actual Over-All DF" actually? The caption tells that DF is limited by the connected voice coil which doesn't make any sense.

I agree that, alas, especially with exotic DIY stuff legend building is a wide spread tool to keep interest high. The real enthusiast knows how to detect unreasonable claims. Of course a DF of 20 is quite sufficient. A too high DF may indicate a high feedback device which might be prone to instability.

Coming back to the DF, once speakers were not voltage driven, but current driven. It is possible to succeed with DF = 0.

The first time Nelson Pass came up with his constant current source single ended amplifiers with a DF at 2 or zero or 8, he was greeted with criticism all around. Today we find amplifiers with infinite negative feedback loops claiming DF in the thousands. I have listened to some of these and find that my three stage classic push pull Class AB topologies with limited feedback is better sounding. It is my observation that once you have an active 3/4 way driven system with multiple drivers, the quality of music is only dependent upon the correct amplifier wattage for differing drivers, an enclosure and baffle which your drivers like, and a keen human ear to tune the system into playing wonderful music which your ear, brain and soul likes.

 

[WinWiz]

playing wonderful music which your ear, brain and soul likes.

This last phrase nails it. Couldn't agree more!
I have spent a few hours enjoying various music from my chn-110 mltl speakers today.
Sure speakers playing downwards from a ceiling can't replicate a true live experience. But with a little eq I can't stop moving my feet and singing along. Pure joy, I'm so happy!
And this is how the speaker look mounted in my overhang:

 

[Tangband]

I have just built slim 32L ported quaterwave speakers with the chn 110.
The sound from these 5" fullrangers is mind blowing. Trying to avoid room modes I measured a single speaker outside. A single chn 110 actually managed to fill my backyard with rich deep bass. I love deep accurate bass nodes so that really surprised me!
I ended up spending all night outside listening to my all time favorite tracks and the sound is so detailed I can hear stuff that I never noticed in the recordings before.
Handles frequencies bellow 30Hz at naibor disturbing levels and seems to handle everything from symphony to phyc trance very well.
I used to think 3way speakers was better than 2way but these fullrange drivers have convinced me, sometimes less really is more. I believe single point sound source and amp connected straight to the driver, without passive or active crossover, does something I really appreciate.
Sure the chn 110 isn't perfect. On axis sound is bright but with tone control that's easy to fix. And for my application I will always listen somewhat off axis anyway.
High frequencies isn't exactly smooth but my ears can't hear anything above 12-15Khz anyway so I don't care.
I suspect the elevated and somewhat jagged high frequency response could be problematic with perfect ears and /or a load dependent class d amp without tone controls.
Offaxis measurements show a dipp at 6500hz, maybe cone breakup? But I really can't detect anything missing when listening so I don't mind.
I build these speakers for a secondary soundsystem but compared with the dynaudio speakers in my main system I actually prefer the diy chn110 speakers. So I might build another pair for the main system.
Considering the price chn110 seems like a steal.

Moving on - I have laborated with different loudspeakercables, using ordinary ofc copper 1.5 mm sounds really good. But a clear improvement has been made by using soldered deltron contacts together with the Linn K20 cable . The resolution becomes better with a better illusion of depth the soundstage . This 4 mm cable has apparently been in production since 1982 and is , together with the LP12 one of the product thats been longest in production. A real bargain at 10 dollars/metre. Sounds crazy but this cable was one of the products that made Linn famous. The price has only doubled the last 40 years. Im gonna use this cable inside the speakers to.

 

[WinWiz]

I swear my speakers sound more silky in high pressure weather!
But honestly I believe the key word here is illusion.
Are your cables long?
Try measuring the resistance and do the math...

 

[MAB]

I swear my speakers sound more silky in high pressure weather!
But honestly I believe the key word here is illusion.
Are your cables long?
Try measuring the resistance and do the math...

Ambient temperature and pressure will actually cause measurable differences. Not sure if I can hear them, or if I even care (I don't spend time at the Santa Fe Opera debating if the high altitude affects the sound!). But I can measure these differences. Cables do not.

But a clear improvement has been made by using soldered deltron contacts together with the Linn K20 cable . The resolution becomes better with a better illusion of depth the soundstage .

No it does not. All in the head. Wires don't matter.

 

[Waxx]

Those classic Linn cables are not bad, they are just overpriced. I can get the same quality generic OFC cable for about 1€/m. But if you're happy with those, don't bother. 10€/m is overpriced, but not ridiculous expensive. And they are well made.

 

[MAB]

Those classic Linn cables are not bad, they are just overpriced. I can get the same quality generic OFC cable for about 1€/m. But if you're happy with those, don't bother. 10€/m is overpriced, but not ridiculous expensive. And they are well made.

Yes. They do feel nice in hand. They are 10x overpriced, but not 100x or more like some of the competition.

Sounds crazy but this cable was one of the products that made Linn famous.

I have no recollection of the wires making Linn famous though. Perhaps I missed an important part of Linn's history, if so please share. Otherwise, I have to agree with the sounds crazy part!