Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Mikig]

To me, the romanticism is in the music, not the gear.

I just want my gear to get out of the way as completely as possible, so I can get the cleanest representation of the actual music signal as I can. Fortunately, these days that's easier and cheaper than ever.

I’m agrre with you!
look, you break an open door…. for me “romanticism” is about anything….music, and components included. I think it's in the DNA of those like me who were born and live in the country of Vivaldi, Leonardo Da Vinci and Enzo Ferrari...

To return to the topic,
the choice of the DO300 came from reading the review here on ASR. I thought that kind of performance would make me safe in preserving as much of the original sonic message as possible.
In fact we talk about linearity and jitter, perfect, exceptional multitone performance and probably unmeasurable noise….
I add that I bought it online "used as new" for 290 euros!!!!! what more could you want???

 

[Devian]

Got ifi zen dac v2.

Tested with Audeze LCD-X, ATM50X, Fostex TR-50 mk3, HD25

Sound from the headphone amp is a total trash. AMP tries to play wide stereo image, but it brings so much distortion and "soap"... My Macbook Pro M1 built-in sound is much more transparent, clear and detailed.

Bundled cables are very bad.

So I've attached it to the Rupert Neve RNHP with my schulz mk2 cable. With discrete amp it sounds much better. Sound has interesting involving effect, some warmth and interesting mid/high coloration, but the overall quality is just a little above the average consumer level.

Then I've compared it with Focusrite Clarett+ 2pre + Rupert Neve RNHP. It's completely another level in details and clarity.

I've got clarett for $430 on sales. zen dac is about $200. It's twice cheaper but clarett also has 4 outputs, 2 inputs with preamps, low-latency drivers.

So this IFI is a fckng robbery. Audient id14 mk2 is far ahead at the same price.

IFI is a company for deceiving suckers. Review conclusion was correct.

 

[DSJR]

I believe Linn dealers used to practise the very same method, sit quietly and sullenly when the opposition TT was being auditioned and dance manically when the LP12 was playing @DSJR ?
Keith

NO, at least not the first wave of Tune dem dealers!!! The rhythm kings all came later on...

I've always sung along to lyrics of favourite songs (I wish I'd memorised my academic studies better in teenage years but couldn't/didn't) and I had a quite acceptable singing voice in my youth. Having the 'tune dem' explained to me by Ivor T himself and then sidekick Charlie Brennan wasn't so much an epiphany or brainwashing, merely an acknowledgement of what I was doing all my previous life (this was a memorable factory visit in May 1981 by the way. Playing some piano music, a Rega 3 (R200 arm) tended to make the piano notes all run together - slightly soft focus or smeared, whereas the LP12/Ittok/Asak of the period enabled greater clarity in the reproduced playing, something you'd all recognise and take totally for granted in digitally sourced systems today. 'Following the tune' is perfectly valid but obviously childish to explain these days without ridicule!

Subjective possible twaddle follows so read/ignore at will

I found the 'tune dem' helped me appreciate live music more too, how the instruments or voices in a group harmonised together - or not - and it's still there in my tired old brain to this day. And yes, when I'm playing favourite old songs, I'm still singing along (miming these days as my voice is nowhere near what it was) while appreciating afresh the backing instruments/vocals and how they all relate together.

It was many years later, the days of the Arcam Delta 60 amp (you work it out as I hated the bloody thing), when a friend who was working at (in)famous London dealer Grahams, tried to 'explain' to me how wonderful this amp was, as it portrayed the 'rhythm' and 'pace' of percussive based music so very well. I hated it as the 'tunes' of instruments in the mix were very difficult to follow compared to the early version and admittedly slightly 'sloppier sounding' A60 which I adored and was a charmer if not that wonderful on the test bench The need to impress the UK edition What HiFi (we still refer to this rag as WTF) with their tech-ignorant journos and apparently bad overdamped dem room meant a whole generation of mid priced gear was often hardened up in tone (ringing?) and dried out (speakers) to impress and get the coveted 5* reviews. One Mission sales manager apparently spent a few days in said dem room promoting one of their new speakers but I can't remember if it did him any good to be honest as said journo's soon moved on up the greasy pole to What Car eventually...

It was Martin Colloms (reviewer and one time consultant/guru) who coined the PR@T monika in his reviews and he even designed a speaker a number of years back called 'The Rhythm King' which I admit I never heard.

There really are domestic setups (I suspect speakers really) which make you WANT to keep playing music through them and others which subliminally annoy after half an hour or so. My own main rig is half and half depending on my mood and the recording played, but the big setup I had before herself came along into my life was used every single evening and all days off when I was at home, as I enjoyed it so much. Some setups I had before that, I'd go away for a few days and be very underwhelmed when I switched it on, the next half hour convincing me it wasn't bad as it and my brain 'warmed up' (Naim driven passive Isobariks was a typical system that did this to me).

 

[Purité Audio]

Are you saying David that you, are responsible for the ‘Tune Dem’?
Keith

 

[Mikig]

so if I give a correct interpretation, we can summarize that a component, be it a DAC, an amplifier or a speaker, has high performance when the signal is dirty or colored as little as possible and when its speed in terms of rhythmic time is the most as close as possible to the original execution. And the dynamics of the signal itself is as faithful as possible. In short, the very famous "wire with gain".

How much then depends on the quality of the master or recording uploaded to the various streaming platforms that we use every day, which I assume is often the thousandth copy and paste use.
And how much influence does the machine that processes this signal and then send it to the rest of the chain, be it our computer, server, have?
And how much do the number of Bits and the number of KHz influence the message itself?


Thanks if anyone wants to reply or direct me to another thread!!!

 

[Purité Audio]

Lossless music, transparent electronics, loudspeakers which are as un-coloured as possible, fix any problems added by the room itself, that’s it.
Keith

 

[DSJR]

Are you saying David that you, are responsible for the ‘Tune Dem’?
Keith

NOOOOO - Linn is!!! I had a dealer visit in 1981 to the Linn factory with a colleague who was picking up his Ittok tonearm. The morning was spent touring the factory and the afternoon was in the dem room, a typical visit schedule (Naim often did the same). I'm suggesting that in my case, I was doing it sub-consciously all my life to that point and didn't need to have this particular 'processing' done apart from being made more aware of what I was doing. Music listening via a system or live became even more enjoyable and 'fun' so didn't do me any harm at all.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

its speed in terms of rhythmic time is ... as close as possible to the original execution

You are right to question whether the machine (in my view, that is the correct word) does its job correctly. Tests and measurements will tell you whether it does or not. But "speed" and "rhythmic time" have nothing to do with audio reproduction, only the original performance.

After the recording has been made, playback electronics are dead. They have no emotion, they can't think, and they have no will of their own. They are, as I said above, machines. If they are designed correctly, they cannot have any effect on the performance; it has been etched in stone, so to speak.

How much then depends on the quality of the master or recording uploaded

You can judge for yourself here:

Listen and choose the 8th generation digital copy.

Each of these zip files will open into three wav files. One is labeled Reference, one is A and one is B. These are 30 second snippets of full songs. The originals were from CD so all 44.1 khz and 16 bit. Either A or B has been thru 8 generations of DA to AD copying. The other is identical...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Jim

 

[Mikig]

You are right to question whether the machine (in my view, that is the correct word) does its job correctly. Tests and measurements will tell you whether it does or not. But "speed" and "rhythmic time" have nothing to do with audio reproduction, only the original performance.

After the recording has been made, playback electronics are dead. They have no emotion, they can't think, and they have no will of their own. They are, as I said above, machines. If they are designed correctly, they cannot have any effect on the performance; it has been etched in stone, so to speak.



You can judge for yourself here:

Listen and choose the 8th generation digital copy.

Each of these zip files will open into three wav files. One is labeled Reference, one is A and one is B. These are 30 second snippets of full songs. The originals were from CD so all 44.1 khz and 16 bit. Either A or B has been thru 8 generations of DA to AD copying. The other is identical...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Jim

by speed and rhythm I mean what we often hear referred to as "transient response", where the characteristics of a machine, be it an amplifier or a speaker, guarantee such a speed to pass to a different signal state without distortions or slowing down of the rhythm.
This is said to affect the final result quite audibly because too little speed would result in muddy, less contrasty music.
Furthermore, it is also important during the registration phase.

PS I apologize if my language may not be technical and the terms may not be precisely appropriate, but I am more than anything trying to get a concept across, as I am not an engineer, but rather a curious listener.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

by speed and rhythm I mean what we often hear referred to as "transient response", where the characteristics of a machine, be it an amplifier or a speaker, guarantee such a speed to pass to a different signal state without distortions or slowing down of the rhythm.
This is said to affect the final result quite audibly because too little speed would result in muddy, less contrasty music.

For an explanation of transient response and its role in electronics and speakers, see this thread:

Is transient response the most important thing for the perceived audio quality in a system ?

This is an interesting article : https://www.hifireport.com/understanding-transient-response-in-audio-a-beginners-guide/?utm_content=cmp-true ”Why is transient response important? Well, music is full of transients. If your audio system can’t reproduce them accurately, the music will sound...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Jim

p.s. - it's not as exotic as many people think!

 

[Mikig]

For an explanation of transient response and its role in electronics and speakers, see this thread:

Is transient response the most important thing for the perceived audio quality in a system ?

This is an interesting article : https://www.hifireport.com/understanding-transient-response-in-audio-a-beginners-guide/?utm_content=cmp-true ”Why is transient response important? Well, music is full of transients. If your audio system can’t reproduce them accurately, the music will sound...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Jim

p.s. - it's not as exotic as many people think!

Thanks Jim

 

[DonR]

by speed and rhythm I mean what we often hear referred to as "transient response", where the characteristics of a machine, be it an amplifier or a speaker, guarantee such a speed to pass to a different signal state without distortions or slowing down of the rhythm.
This is said to affect the final result quite audibly because too little speed would result in muddy, less contrasty music.
Furthermore, it is also important during the registration phase.

PS I apologize if my language may not be technical and the terms may not be precisely appropriate, but I am more than anything trying to get a concept across, as I am not an engineer, but rather a curious listener.

For anything behind the amplifier in the chain, as long as it has sufficient bandwidth and a flat frequency response it will have a sufficient transient response.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Thanks everyone for your help, I did manage to find one reviewer doing the comparison, he basically said the Qutest sounds a little worse, I'll probably buy another mojo2 for my 2nd setup.

Any reviewer saying two DACs like that sound different is a subjective fool.

 

[Devian]

At the end I've paired it with topping a90 and took it to the office.
+/- acceptable. Bright and sparkling ifi got dark coloration from the topping. Acceptable for the non-critical listening while working.

 

[Veri]

Bright and sparkling ifi got dark coloration from the topping.

Huh. Arguable.

 

[Devian]

Huh. Arguable.

That's very subjective

I also own motu 1248(ess sabre) as a main mixing interface in the studio. It's quite neutral ESS implementaion for the studio usage. I've used to that sound.

Zen Dac v2 tries to be more impressive, beefy in lows, more presence in Mid/Highs. It's a coloration for the listening experience. But I should admit Zen Dac has a proper balance with a little highs presense.
Topping is supposed to be neutral as well, but for me it do a little dark coloration, reducing the extra colors. That's just what I hear.

Here is nothing to argue, it's very subjective and individual. You should test a dozens of units to choose yours.

PS. This DAC is quite joyful with good amp and middle range headphones like M50X or TR-50mk3. But keep in mind that I've paired 200 bucks dac with 500 bucks amp.
No surprises as DACs are cheaper to produce rather than good amps.

 

[Anthony101]

Is it Possible for Audio Equipment Manufacturers to Sacrifice Overall Quality in Pursuit of Better SINAD?

 

[Blackcrocrecords]

You are wrong my friend, I am an expert in testing high-end equipment, I have a music production studio in which I spent more than $100,000, I have tested dacs from several brands, I even have an Apogee Symphony desktop, which costs $1600, It has a 9028 pro chip, and the d90se sounds much better than this one and others that I have tried. I have my control room acoustically conditioned and calibrated with a frequency response of +-3 db throughout the frequency range, and I can assure you. that not only do dacs sound very different, but even changing a cheap power cable for a more expensive one also makes a difference. Those of you who say that there is no difference, it is because you do not have adequate equipment or listening place, to be able to hear that difference my friend. These dacs are not for everyone, they are for people who have very high-end equipment. I have it and I can confirm that there is a big difference. In case you wanted to know, you can ask me whatever you want, I am at your disposal. greetings from Spain.

 

[Blackcrocrecords]

I trust my ears, no one else. I was like you, I read a lot, until I realized. Unfortunately, I have lost a lot of money and time to be able to check all those things for myself, my friend. but if you want to trust what you see written on the internet, I respect that.

 

[Blackcrocrecords]

This interface, which is a better brand than Topping and costs almost twice as much, is supposedly better manufactured than Topping's d90se, since it sounds worse. I have them in my studio.