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Denon AVR-X6700H AVR Review (Updated)
- Thread starter amirm
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Big stereo gear companies like Denon and others don't keep records on who buys what and their contact details. It appears ASR is a case where Denon admitted the circuitry change exists. I doubt most users-owners will even notice the difference and will happily live on in without the circuitry change.
Sound United support said the Capacitor issue does not affect the end user in anyway at all, it is not something that can be heard. Support agent confirmed the change though, so why change it if it can't be heard? Sounds like they're talking out of both sides of their mouth.
Because they just want to also hit performance standards?
Anyway, if I would be in the market for these I'd wait a couple of months for old stock to clear just to be sure.
Everyone seems to want to find a conspiracy theory here. First law of conspiracies - never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be adequately ascribed to incompetence. Or, in this context, someone making a mistake is always the most likely answer.
It is trivial to see how a mistakenly respec'ed capacitor could exactly cause the problem found. There are not many capacitors in the signal flow in question. Something as simple as using a high-k ceramic instead of an NPO in the output filter would almost exactly match what was found.
Read this: https://www.edn.com/signal-distortion-from-high-k-ceramic-capacitors/
It describes an almost uncannily close scenario.
Inspection of the PCB would be very unlikely to be of use. The capacitors in question would be tiny surface mount, and display little to no useful markings. (That is a painful price for miniaturisation, the only markings that tells you what a component is are on the reel mounted in the pick and place machine. Once on the PCB they become anonymous.)
Overall there is no reason to imagine the story is anything other than what Denon claim. An ingrained cynicism and desire to find fault and malicious intent seems to be part of modern society. Which is a great pity. It reflects more on those trying to find fault than anyone else.
It is trivial to see how a mistakenly respec'ed capacitor could exactly cause the problem found. There are not many capacitors in the signal flow in question. Something as simple as using a high-k ceramic instead of an NPO in the output filter would almost exactly match what was found.
Read this: https://www.edn.com/signal-distortion-from-high-k-ceramic-capacitors/
It describes an almost uncannily close scenario.
Inspection of the PCB would be very unlikely to be of use. The capacitors in question would be tiny surface mount, and display little to no useful markings. (That is a painful price for miniaturisation, the only markings that tells you what a component is are on the reel mounted in the pick and place machine. Once on the PCB they become anonymous.)
Overall there is no reason to imagine the story is anything other than what Denon claim. An ingrained cynicism and desire to find fault and malicious intent seems to be part of modern society. Which is a great pity. It reflects more on those trying to find fault than anyone else.
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The manufacturer keeps track of serial numbers and dates of manufacture. If you request details Denon might tell what has received the updated circuit change. I would't expect anything but one never knows until trying.
It does not explain the change in stopband attenuation.. that is a function of the DAC and/or digital filters. Clearly those changed during the two measurements. Why I don’t know.. but this definitely is not caused by a cap swap.
It might. Only might, but it isn't impossible that the incorrect cap had a problem with something like self resonance that damaged the ability of the output filter to attenuate deep enough. But given the new unit may well have had a software update we may see a different DAC digital filter chosen as well. Unless we know that both units were tested with the same software revision it gets a bit hard.
I don't think a great conspiracy has occurred, I'm sure a select few might feel that way. Might be a stretch to say, 'everyone'
As a non-enthusiast it's great to see Denon working with Amir to correct an issue that 99% of the intended customers probably wouldn't ever notice. That's fantastic.
True. Poetic license.
No, the output filter is not attenuating this, it’s the digital part that does that. The analog filter is further up in frequency. Also some resonance would probably not give such a recognizable stopband spectrum, it would really show something messy.
a firmware update could very well be the case.. why not just mention that then. It could also be that different settings were used the first time? In that case it might turn out that the cap change does indeed not do anything to the performance and it was all down to software.. and in that case, why would Denon have confirmed the measurements the first time? Any way you look at this, something somewhere still does not add up... at least we now know the device is actually capable of decent performance.
Tks
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Normally when you hook up two Audio products with RCA cables, you cause ground currents to run between them and potentially create Hum. The Hum may not be loud enough to be heard but is likely to be there.
The Audio Precision unbalanced inputs are actually floating and not connected to its chassis ground. Most of the time this presents a better situation than actual use, allowing me to measure the gear without ground loops interfering. On occasion though, it doesn't work this way and grounding the analyzer to the audio device improves things. I have many options here, grounding the output but not input, input but not output, or both. This is what I mean when I say "playing" with grounding.
For your situation it is best to use balanced connections when you can as to obviate this issue. If you are using RCA, then you are condemned
Thank you. So this becomes a complete non issue completely if your chain is balanced?
Indeed. I tend to agree. Is was just looking for weird second order effects. Maybe that is just me.
Overall I suspect you have answered your own question about the filter. It really can only be in the digital section, and a software change would be the obvious culprit.
So if Denon puts this unit on auction here on ASR, say members only, I wonder if people going to bid and willing to pay more?
I am sure Denon has to abide by at least some sort of code of ethics..
Very good, very good, nice to see a company fix their product on the basis of an initial review.
You hit the nail on the head!! Another example of that is, in that video (that highlighted the SR8015), Phil (forgot his last name, but the same Denon gentleman who was in the Denon video) made it clear that under the same conditions, Denon and Marantz such as the 6700 vs 8015 would sound different, though he never said whether that "difference" could be heard by ears, or both ears and eyes. The Marantz design team person also "confirm" Denon sound punchy and Marantz sounds musical, but again did not define and/or cause the "musical" sound.
I can confirm the Marantz is far more musical, it's simply exquisite, and oozes musical goodness over the inferior Denon lineup.You hit the nail on the head!! Another example of that is, in that video (that highlighted the SR8015), Phil (forgot his last name, but the same Denon gentleman who was in the Denon video) made it clear that under the same conditions, Denon and Marantz such as the 6700 vs 8015 would sound different, though he never said whether that "difference" could be heard by ears, or both ears and eyes. The Marantz design team person also "confirm" Denon sound punchy and Marantz sounds musical, but again did not define and/or cause the "musical" sound.
At least that's what most dealers tell me.
Amir, thank you for the hard work put into the so in depth testing and even troubleshooting so many D&M AVRs/AVPs.
If I were Denon, I would have hired you as their 3rd party independent consultant/advisor on continuous improvements of their products already. Even now, I am confident the next Denon, and Marantz generation will hit the 100 dB SINAD mark for both analog and digital inputs, and amps would do better than at least 85 dB as well. That's because they now know there are hundreds of ASR members plus more on the likes of AH, AVF, AVSF forums watching the bench test results. Before you, there were only AH and HTFI giving them independent bench test feedbacks, along with often mild mannered (just my perception) criticism and apparently behind the scene requests for improvements.
I have no doubt, we the consumers will benefit from your hard work (nights and weekend shifts obviously). Sound United would likely benefit from your efforts too as I am sure it will help in crease their sales volume in the long run, assuming I am right in anticipating that they will react to (and act on) positively to ASR members comments that could be very blunt, borderline on being harsh or even a little unfair at times.
If I were Denon, I would have hired you as their 3rd party independent consultant/advisor on continuous improvements of their products already. Even now, I am confident the next Denon, and Marantz generation will hit the 100 dB SINAD mark for both analog and digital inputs, and amps would do better than at least 85 dB as well. That's because they now know there are hundreds of ASR members plus more on the likes of AH, AVF, AVSF forums watching the bench test results. Before you, there were only AH and HTFI giving them independent bench test feedbacks, along with often mild mannered (just my perception) criticism and apparently behind the scene requests for improvements.
I have no doubt, we the consumers will benefit from your hard work (nights and weekend shifts obviously). Sound United would likely benefit from your efforts too as I am sure it will help in crease their sales volume in the long run, assuming I am right in anticipating that they will react to (and act on) positively to ASR members comments that could be very blunt, borderline on being harsh or even a little unfair at times.
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