Has anybody heard the new KEF KF92 sub? What are your opinions?

[q3cpma]

I'm still convinced that the best option for your particular requirements are the Hypex Fusion two-channel amps that will serve as both crossover and dsp for both sub and fronts. This little Kef sub will work fine in a home environment, but I don't think small long-stroke subs with long excursion, low sensitivity and therefore a bunch of power can equal a larger, more efficient driver in a larger box for pure musicality when crossed higher.

You say aesthetics are a limiting factor, but is form factor also a concern? Does it need to be a small cube? I have nothing against small cubes, but when it comes to aesthetics I think unconventional stuff might be preferable. You can hide a row of subs between the fronts in a dedicated furniture, or you can make something so nice that you don't want to hide it. Picture for attention;

View attachment 83891

Yes, good idea along with studio subs. That T6018 at 1500€ looks especially nice; my only beef is that once again, the Fusion software is Windows only...
OP, you should also look at Arendal subwoofers, they may be good for you, though I don't know if they can high pass their output, you'll need to email them about that.

 

[killdozzer]

He has two points with regards to elevation, one more valid than the other.

1) Reduce transmission to the floor: You don't really need to elevate your subwoofer to do this, soft damping feet will do this.
2) Smoother frequency response in the room: This is a valid point that I agree with (very objectively since we build wall mountable subwoofers ), but it's mainly a point if you have multiple subwoofers. Then you can have one at the floor level and one elevated to even out the response. But you can't achieve that effect with just one.

Thank you. Your points are not exactly the same as his. He says it's wrong because he sells the "remedy". You don't say it's wrong or can't be done properly without the remedy. I'm not interested in evening out the bass response for the entire room (otherwise I wouldn't be looking at 2.1 system, but a 2.2 or 2.more-than-2 ) I have my LP and I'm looking to get nice low end at my LP. If your sub-crawl says it's near a wall or near the floor, that's where it's at. My take is it can be on the floor or elevated. More than one right answer and that's how I understood what you're saying.

One of the reasons I'm looking for a small sub is because I have a small apartment so I won't be buying more than one for sure.

So you can't EVEN OUT the lows across the room with just one, but you can have a comfortable sweet spot at your LP with just one.

 

[killdozzer]

I'm still convinced that the best option for your particular requirements are the Hypex Fusion two-channel amps that will serve as both crossover and dsp for both sub and fronts. This little Kef sub will work fine in a home environment, but I don't think small long-stroke subs with long excursion, low sensitivity and therefore a bunch of power can equal a larger, more efficient driver in a larger box for pure musicality when crossed higher.

You say aesthetics are a limiting factor, but is form factor also a concern? Does it need to be a small cube? I have nothing against small cubes, but when it comes to aesthetics I think unconventional stuff might be preferable. You can hide a row of subs between the fronts in a dedicated furniture, or you can make something so nice that you don't want to hide it. Picture for attention;

This pic alone just ended my relationship! Kiddin'! I'm looking for a solution from where I stand (with a bunch of equipment already bought to my satisfaction), you're looking for a solution free of the context I'm in. That's why it's not working.

If KF92 doesn't perform as expected, I'm taking a step back to SVS SB Pro 2000 and a miniDSP, but I'll leave no stone unturned to first try to avoid buying the miniDSP. If, in the end, I'm forced to buy one, I'll probably open the sub and built it in or I'll open my amp and built it in and I'll hate myself for doing so and I'll hate myself for failing at an elegant solution as well as for giving a sh..load of money only to have to hide something in such a stupid fashion.

I do obsess over these things. If you allow me to counter your pic with one of mine:



This is just my speaker stand. I ordered it made from walnut to my requests. Difference between our pics should accentuate how far removed from your solution I am. I know, they may even be ugly to you, but to me they look as good as my system sounds. Eyes are just as important.

 

[killdozzer]

They're all tiny. You tuck them behind things. Literally no electronics visible. Good luck with your predicament.

No hard feelings, please. I really appreciate you trying to put your two cents in. I'm just looking for something else. Ideally, it would be a 2.1 or 2.2 stereo amp with DAC built in, accessible via USB B, some sort of REQ, Dirac or whatever, with a solid 120Wpch into 8 and 200 into 4 while being quiet and behaving like a true gentleman. And it has to look good (no touch-screen for the love of god). There are a few that come close, but so far they are expensive.

I tried to go the other way around and find a way to hook up a sub that can be properly dialed in and set up in a conventional stereo amp. That's why I was looking for something strong and with a pre-out. And that's why I'm looking for a sub with a DSP and a high pass. So far, KF92 is such a sub, but I want to see how well it performs as it is pricey.

In all honesty, I'm looking for a high performing and well measuring All-In-One. It's just that so far they are expensive and far apart. NAD might get there first with Purifi Eigentakt, but NAD seems to be in love with touch screens so it's not for me.

 

[radio3]

My all-in-one is MiniDSP DDRC-24. Literally no electronics visible in my setup. Everything streamed from iPad or iPhone, incredible sound. Two subs, two brilliant monitors, everything phase aligned, room corrected, impulse response corrected, perfectly integrated. only things visible two pretty monitors.

 

[q3cpma]

No hard feelings, please. I really appreciate you trying to put your two cents in. I'm just looking for something else. Ideally, it would be a 2.1 or 2.2 stereo amp with DAC built in, accessible via USB B, some sort of REQ, Dirac or whatever, with a solid 120Wpch into 8 and 200 into 4 while being quiet and behaving like a true gentleman. And it has to look good (no touch-screen for the love of god). There are a few that come close, but so far they are expensive.

I tried to go the other way around and find a way to hook up a sub that can be properly dialed in and set up in a conventional stereo amp. That's why I was looking for something strong and with a pre-out. And that's why I'm looking for a sub with a DSP and a high pass. So far, KF92 is such a sub, but I want to see how well it performs as it is pricey.

In all honesty, I'm looking for a high performing and well measuring All-In-One. It's just that so far they are expensive and far apart. NAD might get there first with Purifi Eigentakt, but NAD seems to be in love with touch screens so it's not for me.

The Dynaudio I showed you have high passed outputs and parametric EQ via its internal DSP. It'll play louder (bigger woofers and higher sensitivity due to higher internal volume) and is around 600~700€ cheaper.

 

[killdozzer]

My all-in-one is MiniDSP DDRC-24. Literally no electronics visible in my setup. Everything streamed from iPad or iPhone, incredible sound. Two subs, two brilliant monitors, everything phase aligned, room corrected, impulse response corrected, perfectly integrated. only things visible two pretty monitors.

I take my word back. This is starting to sound very tempting (minus the streaming and all things that start with 'i'), but the rest sound great. It would, however require me to change everything and I'm not a rich man. I was going the other way for some time and, although I'm not a record fan, I have some sentimental reasons to cling onto a TT.

You went one step further and got rid the main box (amp) by having all speakers active. So, with, let's say LS50W even dongles could be removed. Where in the chain does the miniDSP sit?

 

[killdozzer]

The Dynaudio I showed you have high passed outputs and parametric EQ via its internal DSP. It'll play louder (bigger woofers and higher sensitivity due to higher internal volume) and is around 600~700€ cheaper.

This is in fact quite interesting. It's not pretty, I won't say it is, but it is interesting mostly for being cheaper and very similar. Half the power and I couldn't find a straight forward sentence that says both drivers are active, but I guess they are. I'll definitely take this one into consideration.

 

[radio3]

I take my word back. This is starting to sound very tempting (minus the streaming and all things that start with 'i'), but the rest sound great. It would, however require me to change everything and I'm not a rich man. I was going the other way for some time and, although I'm not a record fan, I have some sentimental reasons to cling onto a TT.

You went one step further and got rid the main box (amp) by having all speakers active. So, with, let's say LS50W even dongles could be removed. Where in the chain does the miniDSP sit?

I just have Airport Express, which looks like a white power adapter plugged into wall, single Toslink running to DDRC-24 tucked behind books on shelf, 4 RCAs running to speakers. That’s everything. Could use WiFi dongles instead of rca cables if wanted but haven’t bothered. “i devices“ have lovely aluminum volume buttons built in. Gains, PEQs for subs, any xover slopes I want, Dirac room correction (on top of the PEQs set with REW) all set and forgotten on Minidsp firmware. all I ever have to do is ask Siri to play something and adjust volume as please. Could even use Apple Watch if had one. If I don’t have something in my library then it streams from Apple Music seamlessly. Can pass iPad around when have people over and they put whatever want on playlist and things just play. It’s transparent audio system. Whatever music people think of that want it just plays no fuss.

 

[sigbergaudio]

So you can't EVEN OUT the lows across the room with just one, but you can have a comfortable sweet spot at your LP with just one.

Well, only if you are completely free to put the subwoofer where it gives good bass in your LP. Which I'm guessing you're not in your small apartment where you want things to look good. So there's no guarantee you'll get good bass in your LP with one subwoofer. Putting your one subwoofer at a given location in your room will give you good bass somewhere, but not necessarily in your preferred LP.

 

[q3cpma]

This is in fact quite interesting. It's not pretty, I won't say it is, but it is interesting mostly for being cheaper and very similar. Half the power and I couldn't find a straight forward sentence that says both drivers are active, but I guess they are. I'll definitely take this one into consideration.

I understand the styling issue, which is why I also pointed to the Focal. About the power, sensitivity is higher, so it's not comparable.

 

[killdozzer]

I just have Airport Express, which looks like a white power adapter plugged into wall, single Toslink running to DDRC-24 tucked behind books on shelf, 4 RCAs running to speakers. That’s everything. Could use WiFi dongles instead of rca cables if wanted but haven’t bothered.

It misses my goal by a hair. No way of keeping the TT. Yes, I could, but I would need phono-amp, so, another box. Since I don't do streaming, some of those gadgets I don't need. I'm very against Apple and would never give my money to that company.

Anyway, it would require new speakers, selling my amp, buying miniDSP...

 

[killdozzer]

Well, only if you are completely free to put the subwoofer where it gives good bass in your LP. Which I'm guessing you're not in your small apartment where you want things to look good. So there's no guarantee you'll get good bass in your LP with one subwoofer. Putting your one subwoofer at a given location in your room will give you good bass somewhere, but not necessarily in your preferred LP.

Thanks. I am free though. It is small but mostly empty. However, your point would be valid given the premise you've proposed so in that regard I have no counter argument. In regards to that video; elevating your sub is not a must. Also a wall will give you a 1.5dB reinforcement, you might even do good with it. Depends.

I just don't see "lift your sub" as a golden rule nor a rule of thumb.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Thanks. I am free though. It is small but mostly empty. However, your point would be valid given the premise you've proposed so in that regard I have no counter argument. In regards to that video; elevating your sub is not a must. Also a wall will give you a 1.5dB reinforcement, you might even do good with it. Depends.

I just don't see "lift your sub" as a golden rule nor a rule of thumb.

As I said earlier (perhaps not very clear), I agree with that when you only have one sub. Then both floor and elevated position would be fine, and have a relatively equal chance of giving a good result.

On the other hand if you already have one sub, and add a second sub to help even out frequency response, it's a different story. If you with that second sub had it both in a different place in your room AND at a different elevation, you would likely get an even better frequency response. Which I believe was the point the guy in the video was trying to make as well.You don't HAVE to elevate it, but it would improve your response as opposed to having both subs on the floor.

 

[killdozzer]

I understand the styling issue, which is why I also pointed to the Focal. About the power, sensitivity is higher, so it's not comparable.

Sensitivity is not an issue in itself. Sure, you use lower sensitivity for a deeper end from a small box. One you have to sacrifice; your space for a large box, low end if it's small and high sensitivity or sensitivity if it's a small box that digs deeper. You can't have all three.

Sensitivity is not something you always strive for. Since we're talking about active speakers (subs in this instance), and you don't have to worry about power demands, why would you care about sensitivity? The manufacturer built in an amp that is required. You're not saving anything by opting for higher sensitivity.

I think sensitivity was an issue when you had one power amp, when clean power was more expensive and when your one amp needed to drive some beasts. In that case, the higher the sensitivity the less money you have to throw at the amp.

KF92 has two separate amps, 500w each that completely separately drive one driver each. Where does the need for higher sensitivity come into the story?

 

[q3cpma]

Sensitivity is not an issue in itself. Sure, you use lower sensitivity for a deeper end from a small box. One you have to sacrifice; your space for a large box, low end if it's small and high sensitivity or sensitivity if it's a small box that digs deeper. You can't have all three.

Sensitivity is not something you always strive for. Since we're talking about active speakers (subs in this instance), and you don't have to worry about power demands, why would you care about sensitivity? The manufacturer built in an amp that is required. You're not saving anything by opting for higher sensitivity.

I think sensitivity was an issue when you had one power amp, when clean power was more expensive and when your one amp needed to drive some beasts. In that case, the higher the sensitivity the less money you have to throw at the amp.

KF92 has two separate amps, 500w each that completely separately drive one driver each. Where does the need for higher sensitivity come into the story?

Well, it does need 700€ more, so there you are. And I'm pretty sure the distorsion in a sealed box rises quickly when internal volume is too low for the needed displacement.

 

[killdozzer]

You got me @ 700€

 

[sigbergaudio]

Re sensitivity / small boxes / etc: https://sites.psu.edu/speakerdesign/2013/01/24/hoffmans-iron-laws-of-speaker-building/

 

[raistlin65]

I have said over and over again, I find it very strange to see KF92 underperform. The guys from KEF better come up with some white papers and proper testing and fast, otherwise the reputation of undeperforming will stick.

Where are you? In the US market, KEF subwoofers have always had a reputation for underperforming, thanks to alternatives like Rythmik and HSU (and to some extent SVS) which are much better price performance values.

Edit: I see reading further you're in the EU.

 

[bo_knows]

How shall I put it... This is far from the smartest video on audio I've seen. It makes much less sense than that guy believes it does. Let me take a wild guess; he produces the thing he proposes you buy?

This is not video abut audio but more on acoustics and this guy knows his stuff. Anyway, since you already have KEF LS50 and you want good looking gear, I don't think you can go wrong with the

Thanks. I am free though. It is small but mostly empty. However, your point would be valid given the premise you've proposed so in that regard I have no counter argument. In regards to that video; elevating your sub is not a must. Also a wall will give you a 1.5dB reinforcement, you might even do good with it. Depends.

I just don't see "lift your sub" as a golden rule nor a rule of thumb.

Have you measured your R400B? Just curious how good it’s actually performance is on sub-30Hz frequencies. Curious how well it competes with something like SB2000 Pro.

Hi Radio3,
I did some crude measurements using the RealTraps Test Tone CD and radio shack SPL meter. I tried the subwoofer crawl but realized how rediculous this method is (for me anyway). Bass response was down approximately 10db at 20Hz (My Radio Shack meter is probably very inaccurate in this range). Also when driven hard with a 20hz signal, it made some mechanical noises (sub was new and maybe not properly broken in). There was an article from some Australian reviewer with measurements on the web but I can't find it any longer. It measured very well but not much energy below 25Hz. I think the output of this sub is probably equal or slightly less to JL Audio E-Sub e110. I went with KEF due to visual matching and cone material that matches my R500. I hope this answers your question.