General debate thread about audio measurements

[FrivolsListener]

If atomicbob thinks those measurements have no value at all, which has to be the case since he ignores horrific results in them,

Stop.

Atomicbob doesn't ignore anything. He just weighs the importance of them. Instead of focusing how the DAC resolves 0x0000 from 0x0001, he's more interested in how it resolves 0x3000 vs 0x3001. Up in the places where you can hear it. It's still the LSB of the bitstream.

 

[FrivolsListener]

If it were stale I’d of made bread and butter pudding out of it , though amir insists i use french loafs for his..

Maybe you’d prefer brioche buns for yours but I have my standards so you can make your bloody own if that’s the case.

How can you tell? You haven't measured it. You're choosing burned looking toast from golden brown toast. You crack your teeth on the golden brown toast, and then cry, "It was so golden brown! What went wrong?"

 

[Thomas savage]

I’m not intrested in reading proxy wars fort by 3rd parties ..

 

[amirm]

This thread seems like a way to move dissenting views on reviews out of the review itself. Maybe that's not your intention and you are trying to clear up the signal to noise ratio for a more useful review thread. But that's what it comes off as.

I have received good bit of complaints about debates in review threads. In this case, the debate was not even related to amps as it became that of DACs.

Review threads are still open to questions, concerns, corrections, etc. Just not "but are these measurements audible?" And then going on for pages about it.

 

[amirm]

Atomicbob doesn't ignore anything. He just weighs the importance of them.

So he measures things that are not important no matter how bad the results?

 

[Thomas savage]

How can you tell? You haven't measured it. You're choosing burned looking toast from golden brown toast. You crack your teeth on the golden brown toast, and then cry, "It was so golden brown! What went wrong?"

How can I tell the bread is stale ? I send it to amir and his dogs sniff it, they only eat fresh bread and you can’t argue with a dogs nose #facts

 

[Thomas savage]

So he measures things that are not important no matter how bad the results?

Who knows, he’s not here to discuss it and the guy who is here arguing the toss with layman analogies and a hip bag full of miss understandings is clearly not qualified to act in his stead.

This is a total waste of time.

 

[garbulky]

I have received good bit of complaints about debates in review threads. In this case, the debate was not even related to amps as it became that of DACs.

Review threads are still open to questions, concerns, corrections, etc. Just not "but are these measurements audible?" And then going on for pages about it.

I understand but are these measurements audible is a very important question especially if you are describing measurements in terms like "much better", "shown the door" and stuff like that. Because if they aren't, then those superlatives aren't quite fitting and "looks better numerically, not that it matters" is more appropriate.
I apologize if I contributed to talking about dacs in an amp thread.

 

[amirm]

I understand but are these measurements audible is a very important question especially if you are describing measurements in terms like "much better", "shown the door" and stuff like that. Because if they aren't, then those superlatives aren't quite fitting and "looks better numerically, not that it matters" is more appropriate.

It is OK to ask that very question in a review thread and I and others are happy to give an answer. It is the multi-page debate version of it which should go here as that is annoying readers who just want to learn about a product through its review and have to fish through debates to get their answers.

Note that at the other extreme I have been asked to lock reviews and have parallel threads for discussions.

 

[FrivolsListener]

I’m not intrested in reading proxy wars fort by 3rd parties ..

Who? Schiit? Atomicbob? Everyone not included in the club of ASR? Your response is a cop-out for not having an answer.

 

[garbulky]

It is OK to ask that very question in a review thread and I and others are happy to give an answer. It is the multi-page debate version of it which should go here as that is annoying readers who just want to learn about a product through its review and have to fish through debates to get their answers.

Note that at the other extreme I have been asked to lock reviews and have parallel threads for discussions.

I do see that the review threads get tied up in the debate. So I do see your point. Not sure if this is the right way to go about it but I guess one has to do their best and one can't have things both ways.

 

[amirm]

Yeh, let's try it and see how it works. That is the only way we know if a better solution exists or not.

 

[mindbomb]

This thread seems like a way to move dissenting views on reviews out of the review itself. Maybe that's not your intention and you are trying to clear up the signal to noise ratio for a more useful review thread. But that's what it comes off as.

These weren't even in the right thread to begin with. People were discussing dac measurements in an amplifier thread.

 

[DonH56]

This (debating with people who don't care for your point of view) is completely pointless. The goal seems to be to to keep throwing up all sorts of inane arguments and introducing other things into the measurements threads to dilute them and persecute anyone who likes seeing the measurements. There are plenty of other fora for that. Maybe the goal is to so overload folk that they give up and just quit participating? My vote, FWIW, is to keep the measurement threads focused on measurements themselves and move debates on sonic differences, global critiques of and questions about the measurement methodology, personal attacks on anything and everything, etc. in separate threads. It is hard to see the actual measurements for all the "other" stuff being thrown in those threads.

I don't mind teaching and have spent a fair amount of time here and elsewhere trying to explain technical stuff to folk, as have many others, but the on-going debates with no real attempt to understand what is presented and continually attack the credibility of the tests, the person doing the tests, and everything else under the sun is getting too much to deal with.

I guess that means they win?

 

[RayDunzl]

For some purposes, I use only steam distilled water.

For most other things, straight from the tap will do.

I admit to refilling my radiator with Louisiana Swamp Water on the edge of I-10 one morning, but that was a rare occurrence.

My electronic gear is a mix of superb to maybe not so much.

So are the source recordings I listen to.

Such is life.

 

[amirm]

I don't mind teaching and have spent a fair amount of time here and elsewhere trying to explain technical stuff to folk, as have many others, but the on-going debates with no real attempt to understand what is presented and continually attack the credibility of the tests, the person doing the tests, and everything else under the sun is getting too much to deal with.

I guess that means they win?

There are those who cleary take such a route. They lack so much common sense as to then go in another public forum and gloat that they were doing that here!

I created this thread so that we can send them here next time they are so obvious about what they are doing.

 

[cjfrbw]

I do find Amir's DAC measurements fascinating. It's pretty clear that the only thing you really pay for with the expensive stuff is the jewelry box and perhaps a highly upgraded power supply and analog section, if that.

I jumped off the DAC bandwagon many years ago when I bought the Sonic Frontiers top of the line tubed DACs with ultra analog chips. I had bought a Yamaha RX Z9 receiver. I compared the receiver DAC with the Sonic Frontiers and after many comparisons, the Yamaha sounded better, clearer, cleaner, to my dismay. I also heard a lot of DACs at audiophiles homes, the EMM labs stuff, and honestly did not think they sounded better by comparison. I just concentrated on my vinyl, which I love, and listened to digital whenever.

DACs have gotten much better on a routine basis, but I remember posting a comment on the subjective, magic box 'n cords site "Is there anything that becomes an expensive doorstop faster than a so-called state of the art, ultra expensive audiophile DAC?" to a resounding cold shoulder.

I can now listen to 128kbs music through my Yamaha Pre/Pro, and have enjoyable listening sessions, which probably means my subjective audiophile credentials are ignominiously stripped forever. 2 carat instead of 24 carat, I suppose.

 

[Dismayed]

Thanks for moving this absurd thread, Amir. I've decided to ignore the troll.

 

[Palladium]

Ah yes, "concerned and innocent" individuals asking questions to start an "honest" debate and steer it into their hidden agenda.

We have never seen that crap happening before. *sarcasm*

 

[Thomas savage]

This (debating with people who don't care for your point of view) is completely pointless. The goal seems to be to to keep throwing up all sorts of inane arguments and introducing other things into the measurements threads to dilute them and persecute anyone who likes seeing the measurements. There are plenty of other fora for that. Maybe the goal is to so overload folk that they give up and just quit participating? My vote, FWIW, is to keep the measurement threads focused on measurements themselves and move debates on sonic differences, global critiques of and questions about the measurement methodology, personal attacks on anything and everything, etc. in separate threads. It is hard to see the actual measurements for all the "other" stuff being thrown in those threads.

I don't mind teaching and have spent a fair amount of time here and elsewhere trying to explain technical stuff to folk, as have many others, but the on-going debates with no real attempt to understand what is presented and continually attack the credibility of the tests, the person doing the tests, and everything else under the sun is getting too much to deal with.

I guess that means they win?

I agree, I’d like to thank you and the other few who have shown patience in trying to help those that don’t really know obtain a better understanding.

I appreciate your efforts.