Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

[Thomas savage]

A smart guy needs to write some DSP software than can adapt to individual speaker design, listening environments etc and offer it as a licensed entity.

Then all the small companies can use it and get back to just designing the speaker and choosing a amp module but even then it’s a small market. I’m sure there’s a undergraduate that would love the beer money .

 

[Wombat]

A smart guy needs to write some DSP software than can adapt to individual speaker design, listening environments etc and offer it as a licensed entity.

Then all the small companies can use it and get back to just designing the speaker and choosing a amp module but even then it’s a small market. I’m sure there’s a undergraduate that would love the beer money .

One for Madrigal.

 

[oivavoi]

That we are big boys is a given, we wouldn't be here on the ASR , so I (we?) take Keith input with the proverbial ton of Salt ..High Blood pressure be damned !!!

This said. I would love to hear the 8c and their implementation of cardioid bass. It is a given, to me, that controlled dispersion is important in sound reproduction in the home. Whether this is done unintentionally ( some horns) or intentionally ( A list from Linkwitz Labs here) . As for serious bass I have that thought that good bass is a room phenomenon; in other words: we need a smooth and extended bass response throughout the room, for it to sound right. Not a measured and perhaps optimized bass at the specific LP and a non-smooth response throughout the room, something I would like people with serious knowledge to chime on.

From a rational viewpoint it seems to me important to debate subjective impressions. We need , then to understand them and to verify their reliability before just rejecting them off hand. The notion of speakers eing able to convey "bigness" is to me real. No one will ever confuse what comes from a Dunleavy design (any of them) to what comes out from a Rogers LS3/5A-type design even playing pieces with no bass under 200 Hz at 80 dB SPL at the LP in the same room. It would be IMO interesting, even important to study more carefully the phenomenon of "bigness". I have the LSR 308 (just about to build a HT based on these ), while they can play loud .. they do not match to my ears the impression of bigness presented by (sighted) a pair of very old (>30 years old) Magnepan MMG, SMG (?) playing in the same room .. I know I am comparing apples and oranges here but ....
To make sure I stay on topics: Do the 8c come close in that department? perhaps a listening session will tell me :0 ..

Sound'Arg we may meet soon.

Excellent points. I think this is one of the areas where current measurement metrics are somewhat lacking, together with dynamics (which may be related).

The possible objective parameters I can think of which may account for this bigness thing are:

- dynamics (SPL capacity)
- bass extension
- ability to go loud without distorting
- directionality of the speakers
- the size of the radiating surface area of the speaker/baffle (can it have an impact beyond the directionality of the sound waves generated?)
- sound intensity

To reiterate: The 8Cs sound significantly bigger to me than many of the speaker setups I've auditioned, including the 308s. Yet they don't sound quite as big to me as a couple of the really big horn setups I've heard.

 

[fredoamigo]

keith pays you to advertise & promote the 8Cs?

 

[oivavoi]

keith pays you to advertise & promote the 8Cs?

No comment!

 

[Wombat]

My loudspeakers are approx. 16 cu. ft. each. If they can be replaced by 2 to 3 cu. ft. models I am all ears.

I know how my system works. After the many posts re the smaller DSP speakers I have no deep insight into the design's operation, just personal subjective listening impressions and motherhood statements on performance.

I am interested in the relationship of these new speakers to Hoffman's Iron Law.

The maker's need to be more open about their 'secrets' which really won't be anything special as DSP and room interaction is not a new thing in audio. Most will be following Toole, Olive or other researchers who have made their research public and ostensibly 'free'.

I can remember the Philips Motional Feedback Loudspeakers. These new ones are just a much delayed technological advancement on those.

Audio myths, unfortunately, thrive in the market.

 

[Purité Audio]

I can have and sell any speaker I choose . With everything here I can compare directly in the same room, ( the only valid option) the interesting speakers stay the less interesting depart it really is that simple.
I encourage clients to bring their speakers here or I take my speakers to their rooms so that they can directly compare, I don’t have to ‘sell’ them they do that themselves.
My only disappointment was not getting hold of a pair of Beolab 90’s , perhaps if I sell the horns..
Keith

 

[pirad]

Today anybody can do DSP/EQ/DRC for reasonable money.
$195 DAC/DSP/EQ:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-4-x-out-hd
For $450 you can get this:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-24
4 channel EQ and Dirac DAC/DRC/EQ in one. REW compatible.
If you need 10 channel/balanced solutions MiniDsp offers them too.

 

[Cosmik]

Today anybody can do DSP/EQ/DRC for reasonable money.
$195 DAC/DSP/EQ:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-4-x-out-hd
For $450 you can get this:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-24
4 channel EQ and Dirac DAC/DRC/EQ in one. REW compatible.
If you need 10 channel/balanced solutions MiniDsp offers them too.

How powerful are those things? The humble PC is incredibly powerful. I use an Intel Atom-based PC running Linux that cost about £80. The code is far from efficient but it hasn't run out of grunt yet. The problem with such a system is the need for occasional 'IT support' when the operating system updates itself, etc.

 

[Sal1950]

keith pays you to advertise & promote the 8Cs?

Possibly a couple of members here were given "friend of the dealer" discounts for positive reviews?

 

[pirad]

How powerful are those things? The humble PC is incredibly powerful. I use an Intel Atom-based PC running Linux that cost about £80. The code is far from efficient but it hasn't run out of grunt yet. The problem with such a system is the need for occasional 'IT support' when the operating system updates itself, etc.

Those things are powerful dedicated hardware DSPs with matching applications, Dirac including. You can do anything on them in real time with 4 presets to choose from . My beef with such solutions, and all DSP, is the quality of AD/DA conversion. Letting DSP into your signal chain cancels any benefits from the DAC of your choice. If somebody builds a multichannel sound processor with each channel doing the conversions the way I like, I'll be back in the DSP game. Until then I'll be using my DAC of choice and non-DSP solutions downstream.

 

[Sal1950]

A smart guy needs to write some DSP software than can adapt to individual speaker design, listening environments etc and offer it as a licensed entity.

Seriously, after viewing what @dallasjustice was able to accomplish with his M2's + subs and DSP, I wonder how long it will be before autotune software like Dirac and Audyssey advance to that point? A user sets up a calibration mic, runs the setup, and ends with close to SOTA sound from a large variety of decent capable speakers. Current DSP implementations are powerful but have a huge learning curve that none but the most dedicated are willing to take on.

 

[oivavoi]

Possibly a couple of members here were given "friend of the dealer" discounts for positive reviews?

Come on Sal, that's beneath you. The initial problems with production and quality control with Dutch & Dutch have been been well documented in this thread, told about by the actual D&D owners @soundArgument and me. I believe in being honest about my impressions and experiences, be they good or bad.

 

[Sal1950]

Letting DSP into your signal chain cancels any benefits from the DAC of your choice. If somebody builds a multichannel sound processor with each channel doing the conversions the way I like, I'll be back in the DSP game. Until then I'll be using my DAC of choice and non-DSP solutions downstream.

Fully transparent DAC has been around quite a while. If you desire tone controls, do it in the DSP, not some house sound designed DAC. JMHO

 

[Sal1950]

Come on Sal, that's beneath you. The initial problems with production and quality control with Dutch & Dutch have been been well documented in this thread, told about by the actual D&D owners @soundArgument and me. I believe in being honest about my impressions and experiences, be they good or bad.

"Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously."
Just pulling your leg my friend, you weren't supposed to take that seriously.

 

[oivavoi]

"Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously."
Just pulling your leg my friend, you weren't supposed to take that seriously.

Okey dokey!

 

[Dialectic]

Possibly a couple of members here were given "friend of the dealer" discounts for positive reviews?

Nope, my concern about posting about negatives of the 8Cs was that the negatives were reasonably minor, yet I knew that other posters would pile on. I also thought that the cabinet problem perhaps could be attributed to shipping damage.

@Purité Audio is the straightest shooter in the high-end audio business and would never demand a positive review as a quid pro quo. He told me about glitches in the 8Cs and the Kiis when I auditioned both.

Dutch & Dutch ended up replacing my 8Cs. No other high-end company I've dealt with has replaced a product in similar circumstances.

 

[fredoamigo]

Possibly a couple of members here were given "friend of the dealer" discounts for positive reviews?

Yes, maybe nothing is impossible. but I think the 8Cs are more like a spell for everyone who listens to them... me with them.

I hope this week will come here someone from d&d staff as I have questions that embarrass me about them asked, after I would make a decision for this one or others? but these have the advantage that I've already listened to.

 

[pirad]

Seriously, after viewing what @dallasjustice was able to accomplish with his M2's + subs and DSP, I wonder how long it will be before autotune software like Dirac and Audyssey advance to that point? A user sets up a calibration mic, runs the setup, and ends with close to SOTA sound from a large variety of decent capable speakers. Current DSP implementations are powerful but have a huge learning curve that none but the most dedicated are willing to take on.

If you go to the "Genelec"thread and read Floyd Toole's explanations you might realise it is not so easy. To XO/EQ a speaker sensibly you need to know its anechoic performance. It is necessary to confirm/fine tune the results experimentally. Adding the layer of DSP "room correction" Toole finds counterproductive in general for good speakers , and potentially damaging over 500Hz. I absolutely concur --with my own experience from speaker building . I would also add that "room correction" is a misnomer. Rooms' acoustics cannot be corrected with DSP operations on the signal reaching the loudspeakers.

 

[fredoamigo]

I would also add that "room correction" is a misnomer. Rooms' acoustics cannot be corrected with DSP operations on the signal reaching the loudspeakers

I also think that slab correction is a wrong term in fact you never correct the room you only play with the hp ...no dsp system in the world is powerful enough to calculate in real time the reverberant or direct waves of the rooms . maybe that will exist one day because dsp progresses very fast but not before 10 years in my opinion.