Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC

[raband]

I provided a link to the context of the quote. I'm not wrong and I did not intend to be misleading.

Am happy with your response to the question - I asked, you answered.

The follow up with Amir mentioning bugger all difference once level matched is also interesting.

My query was to any "subjective" rather than measured comments Amir made - I hadn't realised he'd made any.

The fact he found them both pretty much the same after level matching them and come back from "Topping sounded better" seems like a tick for "unbiased" to me????

 

[Ron Texas]

No way, no how can we say the Yggdrasil sounds better given addition a spray of unwanted distortions not in the original recording. These distortions cannot even be euphonic. It is just bad stuff.

Fortunately our hearing is poor in these regards so likely in controlled testing, we can't tell these two apart. But the distortions are there whether we test a smoothly varying sine wave or a pulsing square wave. And signal processing theory is proven over and over again (that you can decompose a signal like square wave into component sine waves).

So there is no escaping of the truth here.

Just what were the paid reviewers hearing which they liked so much? It likely sounded different, but I think it was the emperor's clothes. There is a lot of bias out there.

I read stuff like "at first A and B sounded alike, but after an extended and careful listening session A was vastly superior to B." That doesn't seem credible to me. The next reviewer says A sounds considerably brighter than B as B was designed for easy listening. A and B come from the same manufacturer and use the same brand of delta sigma converter hardware.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

If all these measure the same, then for some reasons human ear and brain are more capable than measuring instruments.

Well, That is an important point IMO that many here would disagree with.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Evidence?

I believe he is stating what he is hearing.

 

[DuxServit]

I thought this was a thread about technical measurements using technical instruments (not about who is hearing what, or whether the human ear/brain is more capable than electronic tools like the AP).

 

[SIY]

I believe he is stating what he is hearing.

What he *claims* he's hearing. And the wording was that of a fact-claim.

Extraordinary claims need evidence. Claims like this have all the weight of claims of alien abductions with anal probing.

 

[raband]

anal probing

Schitt soft serve with sprinkle Topping(s)?

Can't argue with measurements - can argue "hearing" til the cows come home and never get a result.

strike that - apparently we can argue measurements...........

Anyone for an icecream?

 

[L0rdGwyn]

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere on ASR, but there is a continuous influx of users claiming to hear differences between DAC's with experienced ASR members saying the claims cannot be substantiated without controlled testing. Have there been rigorous controlled tests performed that can be referenced? I know there have been attempts made, here are some not-so-rigorous tests I have found:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...blind-test-audible-difference-whatsoever.html

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733.html

If it were possible for @amirm (in his infinite free time ) to orchestrate a true controlled test with a large group of both high and low-end DAC's and with an appropriate sample, statistical analysis, etc., that would be of enormous value. I think we all know what the results would indicate, but to have strong evidence to reference would hopefully put the terribly stale DAC subjectivity argument to rest.

Again, if it has been done and I am unaware, I apologize.

 

[SIY]

IMO, it's up to those who claim that there are audible differences between devices with flat frequency response, low noise, and low distortion to prove that claim. Like, f'rinstance, the folks making those claims who are selling stuff without any evidence of sonic superiority.

 

[L0rdGwyn]

IMO, it's up to those who claim that there are audible differences between devices with flat frequency response, low noise, and low distortion to prove that claim. Like, f'rinstance, the folks making those claims who are selling stuff without any evidence of sonic superiority.

Of course, but it is not in their best interest to do so. They are not out to help the consumer, they are out to make $. Showing that there is no audible difference between their entry-level DAC lineup and flagship models isn't going to help their profit margins.

 

[SIY]

Then you're asking others to enact their labor, and in a fruitless way, trying to prove a negative. The merchants will always have excuses for null difference results from independent testers. Always. "Wrong people." "Not enough people." "Wrong source material." "Lousy equipment." "You didn't hook the test subjects up to an MRI machine." The usual. Anything but, "Here's a documented valid and replicable test that showed a significant audible difference."

So, back to "burden of proof is on those who make extraordinary claims. Especially when they're making money from them."

 

[raband]

Am happy for ASR to be about detailed measurements.

There's more than enough places where subjective "data" can be investigated.

Am sure anyone could grab a cheap DAC and an expensive one (beg/borrow/steal) and run whatever listening tests they need to.

I've got a fair few here, ranging from $0 to $50 to $2000+ - will try a "blind" test one day - nothing I read will help with that.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

So, back to "burden of proof is on those who make extraordinary claims. Especially when they're making money from them."

If someone is already making money from their extraordinary claims it would be extraordinary for them to have any incentive to attempt to prove those claims

 

[L0rdGwyn]

So, back to "burden of proof is on those who make extraordinary claims. Especially when they're making money from them."

Well, that isn't going to happen, so the pattern will continue, the industry is built on it. Strong evidence would at least cast doubt in the minds of would-be purchasers, maybe even convince them of the truth, as other measurements on this site have done before. Making a suggestion to perform an audio scientific study on an audio science forum is not unreasonable methinks

If someone is already making money from their extraordinary claims it would be extraordinary for them to have any incentive to attempt to prove those claims

Precisely.

 

[SIY]

If someone is already making money from their extraordinary claims it would be extraordinary for them to have any incentive to attempt to prove those claims

And thus my opinion of the fundamental dishonesty of large segments of the fashion audio market.

 

[SIY]

Strong evidence would at least cast doubt in the minds of would-be purchasers, maybe even convince them of the truth, as other measurements on this site have done before.

No, it won't. No test will ever be enough. Thus the persistence in homeopathy, dowsing, ESP, astrology, and all sorts of repeatedly debunked irrational beliefs.

edit: Remember the aphorism from Swift: Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.

 

[L0rdGwyn]

No, it won't. No test will ever be enough. Thus the persistence in homeopathy, dowsing, ESP, astrology, and all sorts of repeatedly debunked irrational beliefs.

Well it would not eradicate them, there will always be "true believers", but again, it can cast doubt in a much larger population. Why are the disciplines you listed now labeled as "occult" or "alternative" when they were once under the umbrella of "science"? Because they were debunked using true scientific methodology at some point in history.

Anyway, don't want to take this thread completely off course, just wanted to make a suggestion.

 

[Thomas savage]

We are here to discuss the measurements and review, I don’t want all these review threads ending up in a debate about measurements vs what we hear.

If you want to discuss that have a search of the forum for a existing thread on the subject or start one.

Cheers

 

[sonci]

Are you saying that everything with a dac inside should sound the same?
I cannot tell my cd players or dacs apart with 10 seconds of blind test, but certainly I know their sound signature because I used them for 10 to 20 years, none sound the same, not even close.
The Topping D30 that is measured here, sound very good on the optical input, still acoustic guitars sound wrong, a bit artificial. I cannot prove it and I cannot measure it, so feel free to ignore it..

 

[FrantzM]

If someone is already making money from their extraordinary claims it would be extraordinary for them to have any incentive to attempt to prove those claims

And Boy! MONEY they make!!