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S.M.S.L DA-9 vs AO200?

d'Brit

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2020
Messages
33
Likes
13
jokan,

We do share similar views of all things audio.

Re: "I don't think that a fuse, a nice audio grade fuse would necessarily bring about any noticeable difference being that the infineon/merus chip is very, very good to begin with"

I don't think a good fuse 'improves' the sound so much as it lessens the degradation of power. My opinion of the Infineon/Merus chip was initially very high. But in my last abode, circumstance forced me to set the speakers at standing head level! and that prevented me from discovering the SA300's utter lack of depth in the soundstage. I'm big on tonality but imaging and soundstage, among other factors has to at least be adequate.

A comment on amazon touting the AO200's soundstage and imaging gave me hope. Your comments have further persuaded me to purchase one. Besides the cooling, I do think that a good power cord and unit isolation will, again lessen deleterious influences. It's clear that the small size of the AO200 limits what can be done and it is what it is... good to hear that it's not really an issue.

Regarding Xovers, I like to see minimal parts, high quality parts and when possible, first order. I love the idea of crossoverless designs but sadly that just involves other tradeoffs. If the designer's tradeoffs match my preferences, great. If not, move on.

I too would like a pure power amplifier, the Peachtree GanFet400 and LSA GanFet power amps hold much promise. Then there's the Conrad Johnson 45 'control' power amp. (drool) but at $3k and up all are a stretch for me, especially as they demand matching ancillary gear like preamps, etc. Audio gear consists of a chain and the system is only as good as the weakest link. "this hobby costs money!" Indeed it does. "we will never, EVER achieve perfection. We strive for the best compromise, discussing everything with our wallets!" Exactly. Spec Corp of Japan is another brand of dream gear for me. Exquisite stuff and all about the music.

Heat and vibration are the mortal enemies of electronics, so I know where you're coming from in desiring amplification as cold as possible.

"Ruler flat" does not match our hearing, the Munson Curve and subjective listening demonstrate that. But reasonably ruler flat reproduction lends itself well to room correction software, which along with some passive room 'additions' can go far to tame room anomalies. Thus my Paradigm PW-Link Anthem Room Correction preamp. When funds allow and tech advances enough, I do plan on upgrading that link.

I don't have a problem with other people having different preferences in the 'sound' they like. I do have a bit of a problem with people who insist that their view is the only 'correct' view. Not that arguing is called for, simply politely disagreeing and wishing them well on their journey.

"I'm a fan of the balanced sound, the musicality of the amplifiers by infineon/merus. One of the more organic sounding amplifiers out there regardless of cost."

That hits my sweet spot as well.

Nothing against it but I'm not a fan of Bluetooth either. I too haven't much need for it.

I'm good with passing on the idea of adding a fuse on to the AO200.

"Enjoy more music and that's really my personal take on audio. As long as you get to a certain level of sound quality and musicality then I believe that everything is good."

That, in my opinion, is it in a nutshell.

Take care, live long and prosper, ;-)

Geoffrey
 

jokan

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
533
Likes
563
Location
Tokyo, Japan.
jokan,

We do share similar views of all things audio.

Re: "I don't think that a fuse, a nice audio grade fuse would necessarily bring about any noticeable difference being that the infineon/merus chip is very, very good to begin with"

I don't think a good fuse 'improves' the sound so much as it lessens the degradation of power. My opinion of the Infineon/Merus chip was initially very high. But in my last abode, circumstance forced me to set the speakers at standing head level! and that prevented me from discovering the SA300's utter lack of depth in the soundstage. I'm big on tonality but imaging and soundstage, among other factors has to at least be adequate.

A comment on amazon touting the AO200's soundstage and imaging gave me hope. Your comments have further persuaded me to purchase one. Besides the cooling, I do think that a good power cord and unit isolation will, again lessen deleterious influences. It's clear that the small size of the AO200 limits what can be done and it is what it is... good to hear that it's not really an issue.

Regarding Xovers, I like to see minimal parts, high quality parts and when possible, first order. I love the idea of crossoverless designs but sadly that just involves other tradeoffs. If the designer's tradeoffs match my preferences, great. If not, move on.

I too would like a pure power amplifier, the Peachtree GanFet400 and LSA GanFet power amps hold much promise. Then there's the Conrad Johnson 45 'control' power amp. (drool) but at $3k and up all are a stretch for me, especially as they demand matching ancillary gear like preamps, etc. Audio gear consists of a chain and the system is only as good as the weakest link. "this hobby costs money!" Indeed it does. "we will never, EVER achieve perfection. We strive for the best compromise, discussing everything with our wallets!" Exactly. Spec Corp of Japan is another brand of dream gear for me. Exquisite stuff and all about the music.

Heat and vibration are the mortal enemies of electronics, so I know where you're coming from in desiring amplification as cold as possible.

"Ruler flat" does not match our hearing, the Munson Curve and subjective listening demonstrate that. But reasonably ruler flat reproduction lends itself well to room correction software, which along with some passive room 'additions' can go far to tame room anomalies. Thus my Paradigm PW-Link Anthem Room Correction preamp. When funds allow and tech advances enough, I do plan on upgrading that link.

I don't have a problem with other people having different preferences in the 'sound' they like. I do have a bit of a problem with people who insist that their view is the only 'correct' view. Not that arguing is called for, simply politely disagreeing and wishing them well on their journey.

"I'm a fan of the balanced sound, the musicality of the amplifiers by infineon/merus. One of the more organic sounding amplifiers out there regardless of cost."

That hits my sweet spot as well.

Nothing against it but I'm not a fan of Bluetooth either. I too haven't much need for it.

I'm good with passing on the idea of adding a fuse on to the AO200.

"Enjoy more music and that's really my personal take on audio. As long as you get to a certain level of sound quality and musicality then I believe that everything is good."

That, in my opinion, is it in a nutshell.

Take care, live long and prosper, ;-)

Geoffrey

Music reproduction is really very difficult, a piano is a tremendous problem to reproduce convincingly with speakers, much less record. I've done some just slightly above studio/mastering work for learning, or the experience. It is truly a difficult thing to record a piano well. I think that the Broadman *spelling* speakers that use a vibrating board is very good at piano, but it lacks in a full orchestra. Another speaker that I know the creator of rather well is Kiso Acoustics. They use and destroy about 100 fostex horns that they disassemble and make new horns out of ebony, mahogany and other lumber. They also throw out ones that don't meet their standards. Meanwhile they use a tymphany woofer (I use 2 per side myself) and they're not only super inexpensive but have a very sweet midrange. Kiso Acoustics uses wood for Takamine Guitars. Hotel California with Don Henley playing his Takamine is definitely a signature sound from the first record. I listen to a lot of Pink Floyd, David Gilmour, Clapton of course, and lots of Jazz. I like some classical, but not a lot of it. Something about classical music bores me, probably because I had to practice playing the piano as a child and I hated it. I never bothered to properly read music all the time. I could play most of the more entry level stuff by ear. Still can actually. I used to play the guitar myself, but I've had a few strokes and my hands just don't move fast enough so I gave up on playing and only listen these days.

Back to the A0200. With the right speakers, the right placement, the right room treatment, the soundstage on offer far exceeds the outer limits of the width (placement) of your speakers. They can create astonishing depth also. It is absolutely crucial to get the tweeters to be at or near ear level.

It's priced too low in my opinion. I think that can be off-putting to some people who are badge snobs. And then SMSL releases a new line of amplifiers that use 8-10 year old technology, repurpose it and call it new and charge insane pricing. A modern class-D amplifier should not require a fan. Not if it designed correctly. It can run luke warm to the touch and that isn't an issue. But a fan? I take issue with that. I know it measured "well". However it shuts off once it sees a 20khz signal and needs to be repowered to reset itself. And somehow it's got a Hi-Res label, or at least I'm pretty sure it does, all three of their new amps using the same basic chip. I won't name the models, or the chipset used. But it's easy to find on the forum/site.

The A0200 has it's limitations and there is no independent data or graphs to "prove" it's potential or performance. I can only use my years of experience and say it's remarkably close to how a properly designed tube amplifier and or a class A transistor amplifier sounds, but modern. So it has the high frequency extension that is in style today. It will reproduce what is in the recording, good or bad. If you have particularly bright tweeters and sensitive hearing to the 7-10khz range, the DA-9 and A0200 is probably not a good match. but speaker wires can change that rather quickly. I have vintage cloth Western Electric 16 gauge wires, and Nordost pre-terminated speaker cables, as well as some 8 strand, 4+ 4- solid core western electric wires that are I think 24 gauge each. Those use AET (japanese company) pure copper banana connectors, but they use a stainless set screw, guessing that copper will strip too easily? I use those for my funky Sony speakers. Funky because they were originally for the last hurrah for Mini-Disc players. They made what they called a Mini-Disc-Juke. And the better set of speakers sounded alright from the factory. I gutted the crossover, replaced the tweeter cap with Mundorf, the woofer Audyn Copper. Yes, the used speakers only cost me $30 including shipping, but I spent over $400 in parts. They are 6ohm, and frankly one of my very favourite speakers. The tweeters used what sony termed Extended Definition back then, and they are. It matches and plays well with the A0200 and DA-9.

The biggest trick with audio is that ruler flat is nice if you have a studio that is equally flat. And if you are mastering. That's about the only time I enjoy speakers that are super flat. I will exclude Kii Three, and Kii BXT from that equation because those are truly remarkable loudspeakers. I first heard the Kii's in Tokyo a few years ago. Not knowing who I was talking to, I said to the gentleman so you're using DSP to do this and to do that, I can tell that much. I'm impressed at how well you managed to make the rear and side speakers disappear. The sound only appears to come from the front facing two drivers. Apparently to this day, I was the first person and only outside person to get it exactly right. So he asked how I figured it out. I spent most of the day back at the Kii demo room as the other rooms had distributors that didn't have any understanding of matching amps and speakers. I saw YG acoustics paired up to a Japanese made tube amplifier. I just kept on walking. There was no reason for me to stop and listen. The latest line of higher-end or should I say high priced JBL's sound okay, but nothing like what they used to sound like in the 70's when they really rocked. I think those old JBL's would work well with the SMSL A0200 and DA-9. I don't think they'll work well with Focal's particularly well. They're crossovers are power hungry. And their brand has nearly no signature sound, every line sound completely different to another line of their own speakers. This reminds me of 90's Bose speakers. Every pair had its own sound signature. The A0200 would struggle with the 901's for example. I only say this from experience with various brands and how they are designed. Matching your amplifier to speakers is equally important as the amplifier itself.

If you prefer a mixed bag of sound, as in truly every type of music, I think I can easily recommend the A0200. I hope you don't have 8ohm speakers and like to listen at music over 80db though. It will show the shortcomings of the amplifier if the speakers are 8ohm and low 80db/watt sensitive. In a Japanese home, it will not be a problem as the neighbours would complain at that volume anyway. I usually listen to my music at or around 70db when I play music on the louder end. I do like to play music at 90-95db though and on occasion I do for a very brief moment, like a single track only. Japanese homes/apartments which they laughably call mansion's share the same floor plan for the most part. A bedroom will have another bedroom above and below it. My downstairs neighbours are renters. They change out every year. I suspect my constant 24hrs a day music can be irritating! But I never play music loud at night. I also use my RME's PEQ to cut everything below 140hz, and then the bass is cut at 50hz again at -6db Q is 0.1 I believe. Bass just goes right through the walls above and below. Even when my room has bass traps, wall treatment including diffraction panels and absorption panels. The walls are just too thin. When I hear the upstairs children running around for an extended amount of time. I play the soundtrack from Tron Legacy at extreme volume. It makes them shut up. I never get complaints from building management or my neighbours though. It's strange!

So all that being said. The SMSL A0200 is definitely okay at playing at 2ohm loads. It's happiest with 4 or 6, but more 4 ohm than not. We're seeing a lot of 6 ohm speakers lately in the market. I suspect that the manufacturers are saving money and making first order crossovers for a lot of the bookshelf speakers out there. Which isn't an issue if they are relatively sensitive. Keep your speakers in the mid to high 80db range and your SMSL amp will thank you for it.

Remember to cycle that amplifier for a week on and unplugged several times. I urge you to check and also chart the DC-offset of the amplifier from new to a week later. Do this several times a day if possible. Always wait a minimum of 5 minutes, 10 is ideal before taking the measurements. The upper limit is 60mV. Most seem to be between 10-30mV. Mine are extremely low. I have no idea why. I've used multiple meters and they read the same. 0.4mV and 0.5-0.6mV L/R channel. Sure I did replace the paste, but that doesn't explain how my amp measures so low. I think I got extremely lucky. My DA-9 was low also, but not this low.

Definitely buy more music, or play your favourites a lot once you get your amplifier. I suggest you refrain from cranking the volume too high for a while. Keep the volume to be equivalent to the volume of a human voice speaking and not yelling or screaming. Play music that has a lot of information. That does not mean bass tracks per-say. Orchestra's are good. So is a record player by using a phono-stage and RCA level inputs. It will actually speed up the burn-in process hugely. There are sub sonics and ultrasonics in records. CD's digital music just doesn't have that sort of bandwidth, not consistently. A couple of hours with a record, days for digital music, DSD or no DSD. SACD or not, it's not got that insane bandwidth. It works particularly well for solid core power cable. I have some virgin copper, 12 gauge power cables and I had to create clamps to hold the cable in place it's so stiff it'll break sockets and wall outlets! There is a third party go-between for buying from Yahoo Auctions Japan. They'll act as an intermediary so you can purchase the parts you want, for a fee of course. My power cable comes from a private individual who makes these cables and earns his living selling his custom power, RCA, XLR cables. They are in my permanent collection. I don't use it on the A0200 as it's too light. I instead use AET for the A0200. Unfortunately with covid, it seems that a lot of the AET wires are unavailable now. The company is fine, just can't get the wires themselves.

Hope all of this gibberish helps in some way. The A0200 has its limitations but so does everything. The good thing is that it's inexpensive enough that if you are truly unhappy after extensive Burn-In, you aren't out a huge amount of money. Big enough to hurt a little, but nothing that you can't make up in a short amount of time. DA-9 vs A0200? I won't answer on the grounds of I had both but only kept the A0200. But they are sonically to my ears 95% or greater the same. I really can't say anything negative about either amplifier.

Enjoy your music, and I don't know what part of the world you're from, but have a good one!
 
OP
D

DACslut

Active Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2020
Messages
213
Likes
109
My AO200's glitch is in Win10's L/R balance control panel which ONLY occurs with USB input. The slider buttons are reversed but the actual stereo playback is channel correct. I'm on my 2nd unit that has this glitch. I'm sending it back for that reason and the incorrect Bluetooth LED display spelling.
 

jokan

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
533
Likes
563
Location
Tokyo, Japan.
I'm sorry to hear that. The two units must come from the same batch.
My DAC section was fine, the spelling on the menu fine, once selected though, bluetoot!
Aoshida Japan has told me that they will send me a new unit to replace mine and they will pay the $15 or so shipping and FEDEX or DHL a correctly functioning unit.

So they are aware of the problem, they have solved it on the newest batch. It was also confirmed to me that there are no firmware or sound related changes. Besides your reversed DAC channels.

I'm not defending them, but Aoshida seems much, much better than SMSL themselves. Especially Aoshida Hi-Fi Japan.

When they are working, they're quite good!
 

d'Brit

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2020
Messages
33
Likes
13
Music reproduction is really very difficult, a piano is a tremendous problem to reproduce convincingly with speakers, much less record. I've done some just slightly above studio/mastering work for learning, or the experience. It is truly a difficult thing to record a piano well. I think that the Broadman *spelling* speakers that use a vibrating board is very good at piano, but it lacks in a full orchestra. Another speaker that I know the creator of rather well is Kiso Acoustics. They use and destroy about 100 fostex horns that they disassemble and make new horns out of ebony, mahogany and other lumber. They also throw out ones that don't meet their standards. Meanwhile they use a tymphany woofer (I use 2 per side myself) and they're not only super inexpensive but have a very sweet midrange. Kiso Acoustics uses wood for Takamine Guitars. Hotel California with Don Henley playing his Takamine is definitely a signature sound from the first record. I listen to a lot of Pink Floyd, David Gilmour, Clapton of course, and lots of Jazz. I like some classical, but not a lot of it. Something about classical music bores me, probably because I had to practice playing the piano as a child and I hated it. I never bothered to properly read music all the time. I could play most of the more entry level stuff by ear. Still can actually. I used to play the guitar myself, but I've had a few strokes and my hands just don't move fast enough so I gave up on playing and only listen these days.

Back to the A0200. With the right speakers, the right placement, the right room treatment, the soundstage on offer far exceeds the outer limits of the width (placement) of your speakers. They can create astonishing depth also. It is absolutely crucial to get the tweeters to be at or near ear level.

It's priced too low in my opinion. I think that can be off-putting to some people who are badge snobs. And then SMSL releases a new line of amplifiers that use 8-10 year old technology, repurpose it and call it new and charge insane pricing. A modern class-D amplifier should not require a fan. Not if it designed correctly. It can run luke warm to the touch and that isn't an issue. But a fan? I take issue with that. I know it measured "well". However it shuts off once it sees a 20khz signal and needs to be repowered to reset itself. And somehow it's got a Hi-Res label, or at least I'm pretty sure it does, all three of their new amps using the same basic chip. I won't name the models, or the chipset used. But it's easy to find on the forum/site.

The A0200 has it's limitations and there is no independent data or graphs to "prove" it's potential or performance. I can only use my years of experience and say it's remarkably close to how a properly designed tube amplifier and or a class A transistor amplifier sounds, but modern. So it has the high frequency extension that is in style today. It will reproduce what is in the recording, good or bad. If you have particularly bright tweeters and sensitive hearing to the 7-10khz range, the DA-9 and A0200 is probably not a good match. but speaker wires can change that rather quickly. I have vintage cloth Western Electric 16 gauge wires, and Nordost pre-terminated speaker cables, as well as some 8 strand, 4+ 4- solid core western electric wires that are I think 24 gauge each. Those use AET (japanese company) pure copper banana connectors, but they use a stainless set screw, guessing that copper will strip too easily? I use those for my funky Sony speakers. Funky because they were originally for the last hurrah for Mini-Disc players. They made what they called a Mini-Disc-Juke. And the better set of speakers sounded alright from the factory. I gutted the crossover, replaced the tweeter cap with Mundorf, the woofer Audyn Copper. Yes, the used speakers only cost me $30 including shipping, but I spent over $400 in parts. They are 6ohm, and frankly one of my very favourite speakers. The tweeters used what sony termed Extended Definition back then, and they are. It matches and plays well with the A0200 and DA-9.

The biggest trick with audio is that ruler flat is nice if you have a studio that is equally flat. And if you are mastering. That's about the only time I enjoy speakers that are super flat. I will exclude Kii Three, and Kii BXT from that equation because those are truly remarkable loudspeakers. I first heard the Kii's in Tokyo a few years ago. Not knowing who I was talking to, I said to the gentleman so you're using DSP to do this and to do that, I can tell that much. I'm impressed at how well you managed to make the rear and side speakers disappear. The sound only appears to come from the front facing two drivers. Apparently to this day, I was the first person and only outside person to get it exactly right. So he asked how I figured it out. I spent most of the day back at the Kii demo room as the other rooms had distributors that didn't have any understanding of matching amps and speakers. I saw YG acoustics paired up to a Japanese made tube amplifier. I just kept on walking. There was no reason for me to stop and listen. The latest line of higher-end or should I say high priced JBL's sound okay, but nothing like what they used to sound like in the 70's when they really rocked. I think those old JBL's would work well with the SMSL A0200 and DA-9. I don't think they'll work well with Focal's particularly well. They're crossovers are power hungry. And their brand has nearly no signature sound, every line sound completely different to another line of their own speakers. This reminds me of 90's Bose speakers. Every pair had its own sound signature. The A0200 would struggle with the 901's for example. I only say this from experience with various brands and how they are designed. Matching your amplifier to speakers is equally important as the amplifier itself.

If you prefer a mixed bag of sound, as in truly every type of music, I think I can easily recommend the A0200. I hope you don't have 8ohm speakers and like to listen at music over 80db though. It will show the shortcomings of the amplifier if the speakers are 8ohm and low 80db/watt sensitive. In a Japanese home, it will not be a problem as the neighbours would complain at that volume anyway. I usually listen to my music at or around 70db when I play music on the louder end. I do like to play music at 90-95db though and on occasion I do for a very brief moment, like a single track only. Japanese homes/apartments which they laughably call mansion's share the same floor plan for the most part. A bedroom will have another bedroom above and below it. My downstairs neighbours are renters. They change out every year. I suspect my constant 24hrs a day music can be irritating! But I never play music loud at night. I also use my RME's PEQ to cut everything below 140hz, and then the bass is cut at 50hz again at -6db Q is 0.1 I believe. Bass just goes right through the walls above and below. Even when my room has bass traps, wall treatment including diffraction panels and absorption panels. The walls are just too thin. When I hear the upstairs children running around for an extended amount of time. I play the soundtrack from Tron Legacy at extreme volume. It makes them shut up. I never get complaints from building management or my neighbours though. It's strange!

So all that being said. The SMSL A0200 is definitely okay at playing at 2ohm loads. It's happiest with 4 or 6, but more 4 ohm than not. We're seeing a lot of 6 ohm speakers lately in the market. I suspect that the manufacturers are saving money and making first order crossovers for a lot of the bookshelf speakers out there. Which isn't an issue if they are relatively sensitive. Keep your speakers in the mid to high 80db range and your SMSL amp will thank you for it.

Remember to cycle that amplifier for a week on and unplugged several times. I urge you to check and also chart the DC-offset of the amplifier from new to a week later. Do this several times a day if possible. Always wait a minimum of 5 minutes, 10 is ideal before taking the measurements. The upper limit is 60mV. Most seem to be between 10-30mV. Mine are extremely low. I have no idea why. I've used multiple meters and they read the same. 0.4mV and 0.5-0.6mV L/R channel. Sure I did replace the paste, but that doesn't explain how my amp measures so low. I think I got extremely lucky. My DA-9 was low also, but not this low.

Definitely buy more music, or play your favourites a lot once you get your amplifier. I suggest you refrain from cranking the volume too high for a while. Keep the volume to be equivalent to the volume of a human voice speaking and not yelling or screaming. Play music that has a lot of information. That does not mean bass tracks per-say. Orchestra's are good. So is a record player by using a phono-stage and RCA level inputs. It will actually speed up the burn-in process hugely. There are sub sonics and ultrasonics in records. CD's digital music just doesn't have that sort of bandwidth, not consistently. A couple of hours with a record, days for digital music, DSD or no DSD. SACD or not, it's not got that insane bandwidth. It works particularly well for solid core power cable. I have some virgin copper, 12 gauge power cables and I had to create clamps to hold the cable in place it's so stiff it'll break sockets and wall outlets! There is a third party go-between for buying from Yahoo Auctions Japan. They'll act as an intermediary so you can purchase the parts you want, for a fee of course. My power cable comes from a private individual who makes these cables and earns his living selling his custom power, RCA, XLR cables. They are in my permanent collection. I don't use it on the A0200 as it's too light. I instead use AET for the A0200. Unfortunately with covid, it seems that a lot of the AET wires are unavailable now. The company is fine, just can't get the wires themselves.

Hope all of this gibberish helps in some way. The A0200 has its limitations but so does everything. The good thing is that it's inexpensive enough that if you are truly unhappy after extensive Burn-In, you aren't out a huge amount of money. Big enough to hurt a little, but nothing that you can't make up in a short amount of time. DA-9 vs A0200? I won't answer on the grounds of I had both but only kept the A0200. But they are sonically to my ears 95% or greater the same. I really can't say anything negative about either amplifier.

Enjoy your music, and I don't know what part of the world you're from, but have a good one!


Wow jokan, that's some great info. Especially glad to hear that the AO200's soundstage will satisfy. I like a variety of music, genre doesn't much matter with the exception of rap, which is simply not in my wheelhouse. If it resonates and moves me, it moves into the Queue. For me, music has to have harmony and melody. If rock, it must have a beat. I enjoy West Coast jazz. I do like classical though I'm reminded of 'Sturgeon's Law' "90% of everything is crap" ;-)

My tweeters are dialed in at ear level, distance and toe in. The Dynaco's are 6ohm - 86db and the lesser powered SA300 never needs to go much past 12 on the dial. I agree with the theory that every piece of music has a particular volume at which it sounds best (though equipment is a conditional factor) but given that my hearing fades just below 15k (too many rock concerts... when young) to preserve my remaining hearing, I now listen at lower levels than I once did, so I'm comfortable in the mid70 to high 80s range, only occasionally into the 90s. I'm in a duplex and don't play loudly at night or after 11pm and not before 9-10am unless using headphones.

BTW, I'm currently living in Arkansas to be in reach of my daughter and son-in-law and future grandchildren who live in Tulsa, OK (her health and supportive family nearby). My other hobby is fly fishing and Arkansas has some great stream fishing, which is why I'm not in OK.

I'll definitely cycle the new amplifier for a week on and unplugged several times a day, though I'll have to set a phone reminder, as I have an excellent but 'short' memory ;-) When I order the amplifier, I'll also order a digital multimeter to check the DC offset as you advise. Frankly, I didn't know how to do that but searched and found this article; http://hudsonvalleyhifi.com/tutorials-and-tech-support/checking-for-dc-offset It seems easy enough. I'll also follow your advice in keeping the volume low and gradually raise it as the week(s) pass. Reminds me of the Mark Audio's driver requirements.

Thanks for all the advice, its greatly appreciated and I'm now at a level where I can apply it.

Geoffrey

PS: I came up with a design for a high efficiency (94db) bookshelf speaker this morning. I'd like your feedback and input, so if you send me a return email to [email protected] I'll send you the design and parameters.
 

jokan

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
533
Likes
563
Location
Tokyo, Japan.
Wow jokan, that's some great info. Especially glad to hear that the AO200's soundstage will satisfy. I like a variety of music, genre doesn't much matter with the exception of rap, which is simply not in my wheelhouse. If it resonates and moves me, it moves into the Queue. For me, music has to have harmony and melody. If rock, it must have a beat. I enjoy West Coast jazz. I do like classical though I'm reminded of 'Sturgeon's Law' "90% of everything is crap" ;-)

My tweeters are dialed in at ear level, distance and toe in. The Dynaco's are 6ohm - 86db and the lesser powered SA300 never needs to go much past 12 on the dial. I agree with the theory that every piece of music has a particular volume at which it sounds best (though equipment is a conditional factor) but given that my hearing fades just below 15k (too many rock concerts... when young) to preserve my remaining hearing, I now listen at lower levels than I once did, so I'm comfortable in the mid70 to high 80s range, only occasionally into the 90s. I'm in a duplex and don't play loudly at night or after 11pm and not before 9-10am unless using headphones.

BTW, I'm currently living in Arkansas to be in reach of my daughter and son-in-law and future grandchildren who live in Tulsa, OK (her health and supportive family nearby). My other hobby is fly fishing and Arkansas has some great stream fishing, which is why I'm not in OK.

I'll definitely cycle the new amplifier for a week on and unplugged several times a day, though I'll have to set a phone reminder, as I have an excellent but 'short' memory ;-) When I order the amplifier, I'll also order a digital multimeter to check the DC offset as you advise. Frankly, I didn't know how to do that but searched and found this article; http://hudsonvalleyhifi.com/tutorials-and-tech-support/checking-for-dc-offset It seems easy enough. I'll also follow your advice in keeping the volume low and gradually raise it as the week(s) pass. Reminds me of the Mark Audio's driver requirements.

Thanks for all the advice, its greatly appreciated and I'm now at a level where I can apply it.

Geoffrey

PS: I came up with a design for a high efficiency (94db) bookshelf speaker this morning. I'd like your feedback and input, so if you send me a return email to [email protected] I'll send you the design and parameters.

email sent.
 

eldegal

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My AO200's glitch is in Win10's L/R balance control panel which ONLY occurs with USB input. The slider buttons are reversed but the actual stereo playback is channel correct. I'm on my 2nd unit that has this glitch. I'm sending it back for that reason and the incorrect Bluetooth LED display spelling.
which e-commerce site did you order ao200 from?
I ordered ao200 from aliexpress o_O
 
OP
D

DACslut

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Is there an easy fix for these DA-9 problems explained by an Amazon reviewer below?

"This amp was replacing a cheap TPA3250 amp from AliExpress.
Out of the box it had a much more pleasant sound and instrument separation than the TPA3250.
The DA-9, however, picked up a lot of USB interference from my PC (though my DAC and headphone amp as a pre-amp) which to be fair I could only hear if I had it at a very high volume, but it was there. If I unplugged the USB, no problem. Put it back in, I would get a whine and static, especially as I moved my mouse. My TPA3250 even at max volume is DEAD silent. I have no idea why the DA-9 picks up all the noise, shielding maybe?
The DA-9 also has a fluctuating DC offset. I measured it several times per day and the range kept getting higher and higher. I would turn it off a bit and the range would come down, but eventually move up again. I ended up not trusting the longevity of the power supply.
I am sending back and tried Sabaj A20a, but it has its own problems."


If not, I'll probably be returning mine.
 
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6th0

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Is there an easy fix for these DA-9 problems explained by an Amazon reviewer below?

"This amp was replacing a cheap TPA3250 amp from AliExpress.
Out of the box it had a much more pleasant sound and instrument separation than the TPA3250.
The DA-9, however, picked up a lot of USB interference from my PC (though my DAC and headphone amp as a pre-amp) which to be fair I could only hear if I had it at a very high volume, but it was there. If I unplugged the USB, no problem. Put it back in, I would get a whine and static, especially as I moved my mouse. My TPA3250 even at max volume is DEAD silent. I have no idea why the DA-9 picks up all the noise, shielding maybe?
The DA-9 also has a fluctuating DC offset. I measured it several times per day and the range kept getting higher and higher. I would turn it off a bit and the range would come down, but eventually move up again. I ended up not trusting the longevity of the power supply.
I am sending back and tried Sabaj A20a, but it has its own problems."


If not, I'll probably be returning mine.

Hey, that's me! I think you are on the other thread where I eventually got rid of the A20a as well (power supply whine issues). I ended up with an AO200. I still had USB interference and had to use an ifi iDefender with external power to kill it. I suspect that the ifi would fix the problem I had with the DA-9, but I would still have had the DC offset problem.
 

jokan

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RE: DC-offset issues.

The chipset by infineon/merus should have a max of 60mV, it will always fluctuate a little, most people seem to have 15-30mV.
I've changed the factory white grease which is literal rubbish in favour of one that is a paste costs about $11 off amazon. The better pastes have a rating that is clearly identified. Anything above 5 is going to be significantly better for thermal conductivity and seems to help with DC-offset values. My DA-9 was always below 1mV, my A0200 is stable at 0.4/0.5mV. I do think I got lucky with my A0200 with the DC offset. I don't think it has anything more than luck with the excellent numbers. The highest I've seen is 1.1mV and that was in the first few days. It comes down over time. Always remember to wait 10 minutes, disconnect your input connection, have the volume set to zero when measuring.

I know that the newest models of the A0200 have fixed the bluetoot display when bluetooth is selected in the menu. It's correct in the selection menu, just incorrectly spelled when the display reverts to showing it's normal home screen. I have spoken to Aoshida Japan and they have assured me that they made no other adjustments.

Regarding individuals who are picking up noise from external sources. This is worse in the DA-9 than the A0200 in my experience. Mine was rectified by using a better paste that is non conductive, and has some EMI/RFI rejection properties built into the paste. Most of the non-conductive pastes for high powered GPU's have this property even if it's not stated clearly. It is a common issue with high powered GPU's to be noisy. Probably why there is such a huge market for different thermal pastes. Make sure that you purchase non-conductive, zero ferrous metals contained in the paste. It will be labeled if it contains metals.

The DA-9 uses the bottom lid as the cooling/heat transfer area, my DA-9 had about a combined coverage of 20% surface area of grease from the factory and it looked like a drunk person just put the grease here and there. Just use isopropyl alcohol and wipe the old stuff off and apply new paste, 2grams will cover both chips.
The A0200 has a sliding board that contains all of the parts. Sliding meaning that it leaves quite a gap between the aluminium blocks and the bottom of the chassis which is how the chips are supposed to be cooled. After the first 2.5 hours I shut off the A0200 and checked the DC-offset which was higher than I want to even state, it exceeded the factory max value by a huge margin. I suspected that the grease is again the issue. So I took it apart and applied thermal paste I constantly have a supply of. This one is rated at 13.8, whatever that means. It's one of the highest heat rejection ratings that I could find at a reasonable price and non-conductive. Reassembled the amplifier, turned it back on and just let it play for a while. The next day I was well below the factory maximum number for DC-offset. Sliding the PCB back into the chassis is a bit messy with new and extra thermal paste, have some isopropyl on a rag handy, the paste is a light grey colour. It made the A0200 run cooler to the touch, not that the amp ever ran even luke warm. It just kept it from getting anywhere near room temperature. I live in Tokyo and I usually have my room set to 22degrees C, or 72F. The amplifier doesn't get to that temp on the outside. Maybe at the chips it does, but not on the outside. And the noise levels if you had any should go down or be gone. Always try and isolate the problem of noise entering from the outside. The PSU in both the DA-9 and A0200 switches at 50khz, not low at all, and with the literal soup of noise we live in with all the DC adaptors and wi-fi, and bluetooth not to mention if you live in an apartment complex or a home, it all makes a difference to how much noise any device might pick up. The more AC adaptors or power bricks you have the more noise you are likely to pick up. Avoid this by simply finding another power source for the amplifier, try to keep noise making PSU bricks, and adaptors separated as much as physically possible. Your computer is probably the single noisiest component that you have in your house. I have my PC and all computer related devices in one outlet, running a surge/noise filter built in (not a lightning surge protector). All audio gear is on it's own power filtered strip.
I have zero audible noise from tweeters that are 94db/watt sensitive.
Noise is an increasing difficulty. The better PSU's and amplifiers with great PSU's switch at above 300khz or sometimes double that or more. The higher the switching frequency, the less likely any device is to pick up noise. These amps are built to a budget, they still should have sourced a PSU that has a higher switching frequency, but it's a cost issue.

I hope this goes some way to help everyone out there. And yes, the iPurifier line of products do seem to work effectively. I've not heard a negative review from people that I know who own one or several of their devices. If I encounter noise, it is my next step.

Lastly a phenomenon called DC-on the Mains is a real problem in some area's. It's not about how expensive your house is or how new/old your house is. It's more an issue of how far down the electrical grid you are. You can get noisy power just by living too far away from where the power line originates. And of course if your place wasn't wired recently, you are more likely to have wiring that isn't up to the latest building codes which are forever changing.

Troubleshooting is never fun, but it does bring rewards. And yes, I do think that the DA-9 and A0200 are a little bit too susceptible to externally introduced noise. I didn't have noise at all with my A0200, I did hear a high pitched whine at the LED display no matter what the brightness level was set to. I had to have my ear ON the screen to hear it, 2-3 feet away and I could not hear it. But I knew it was there so I opened the DA-9 cleaned off the thermal grease which was not really on there, and I also applied some EMI/RFI absorption tape made by Oyaide Electric (part number MWA-010T) you can find online retailers who have it in inventory, it is effective. I use a thicker version around my tube amplifiers output transformers. It is also expensive, and copper tape doesn't do the same thing. Copper tape will reflect rather than absorb and dissipate.

Hope this helps out a little. I've posted a bunch on the DA-9, worth it or wait thread. But since I sold the DA-9 after 24hrs of ownership of the A0200, I no longer contribute to that thread. I've jumped over here instead.

I'm sorry to hear a few people are having such issues with the A0200, I personally believe strongly that between the A0200 and the DA-9 that the build quality is better with the A0200. It's like the DA-9 was the prototype for the A0200. Even though I know that's not the case. The customer service at least from Aoshida Hi-Fi Japan on Amazon is first rate. They've offered to pay for return shipping at anytime in the future should I decide to have the A0200 replaced for one that doesn't have the typo. Since my unit measures so well, and I leave the screen to time out after 5 seconds anyway and don't even have the bluetooth antenna connected, it doesn't make sense for me to be without music for even 2 weeks. They also told me that they would ship DHL both ways at their expense. I am happy to support Aoshida Japan, as they do seem to care more about their customer base than most online retailers. Aliexpress is the absolute worst in my experience. I've had to threaten them with legal action several times. Covid certainly isn't helping with shipping issues, but non-delivery is a big issue, It's fraud. International fraud. Throw that term around and they start to move very quickly.
 

jokan

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I nearly forgot to mention something else important.
If you have power bricks that are plugged in, but not powering a device, it's sending out noise everywhere. Just unplug the power brick it it's not in use. An open DC outlet will make noise. It seems trivial, but I've encountered it plenty of times that I've learned my lesson to unplug unused power brick/adaptors. It'll have you scratching your head for no reason once you figure this one out. Also remember that even your computer's LCD screen has a power brick and we don't know what frequency that's switching at, though we might know the refresh rate, not much is known about the switching speed of the PSU's in those bricks.

Cheers!
 

Doodski

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I nearly forgot to mention something else important.
If you have power bricks that are plugged in, but not powering a device, it's sending out noise everywhere. Just unplug the power brick it it's not in use. An open DC outlet will make noise. It seems trivial, but I've encountered it plenty of times that I've learned my lesson to unplug unused power brick/adaptors. It'll have you scratching your head for no reason once you figure this one out. Also remember that even your computer's LCD screen has a power brick and we don't know what frequency that's switching at, though we might know the refresh rate, not much is known about the switching speed of the PSU's in those bricks.

Cheers!
I've seen many switching power supplies at ~20Khz to 50Khz and I read that some new very compact ones go into the 100's of KHz range now.
 

jokan

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I've seen many switching power supplies at ~20Khz to 50Khz and I read that some new very compact ones go into the 100's of KHz range now.

yeah, try 500khz and higher as the current standard in high end class D amplifiers!
 

jokan

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Here's an article on the Mytek Brooklyn Amp+.
Mixed reviews of reliability due to two countries that are producing the amplifier, but all amps sold in the USA and distributed through the USA are manufactured and designed and are updated and replaced if defective. It's still a fairly new product with a huge host of updates. I know that ASR did review the amp, not so favourably, but then again, I don't trust and believe everything on paper. I also don't believe that measurements tell us everything about what we hear.

Here's the article:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/mytek-hifi-brooklyn-amp-power-amplifier

Here's the important bit:
"Inside is where the main changes are. "We changed the MOSFET transistors of the AMP to be at least five times faster," Jurewicz told me. "The AMP+ has more detail, which results in a larger, deeper, more 3D soundstage. There's a faster clock, from 450kHz to now 653kHz. This allows us to move the output filter [higher], which translates as more air, a lighter top end. It's less analytical and makes the sound finer with a wider array of speakers. Class-D amplifiers will typically always have this filter, which is essentially a coil and a capacitor, on the output; that's supposed to turn the squarewave into regular sound, typically around 30kHz. When you move the filter up, it improves the sound because it affects the audio less." The output filter frequency in the AMP+ has been increased to close to 50kHz."

There are many Class-D amps that have a PSU that switches at double that speed. For the same reasons, to avoid noise.
 

jokan

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jokan

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Puri-Fi.
500khz.
 

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Doodski

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500khz.
Very impressive and the dimensions of this 1ET400A are tiny @ 82x63x35mm. I never thought I would see the day where this much power can be in this kind of small package.
 

jokan

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In short, we little people playing with our ultra budget, yet high performing amplifiers do have to make concessions because of our limited budgets. have no fear though, these technologies will become the norm in 5-10 years time. It always has. I still remember my Mac SE from 89. 40mb external hard drive! 40 megabytes! I just bought a 4tb drive for $100 shipped to my door and it's so insanely fast and I intentionally wanted an HD, not an SSD. Not for this purpose. Our mobiles are so much more powerful than computers from 30 years ago. It's truly insane! So yes, the DA-9/A0200 is flawed with it's Mornsun power supply. But bare in mind how little it costs. The DA-9 has the PSU directly, and I'm talking maybe 1/4" away from the LED driver for the display. The A0200 has it down the left side, vertically and the nob is in the middle, with the display in the far right corner. They did this on purpose. To reduce noise and to make their version appear differently. It's an added bonus that they came out with their version later than SMSL themselves. SMSL from what I understand builds products for Shenzen Audio. Almost a subsidiary of sorts. So Shenzen Audio has first dibs on new products. Aoshida is a further step away from the original company that takes what SMSL made originally exclusively for Shenzen Audio and then makes their own version. Perhaps it's the better version, I don't know. But I do know that SMSL and Shenzen Audio have exclusivity rights. But that doesn't stop the company from making different versions.
 

jokan

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Very impressive and the dimensions of this 1ET400A are tiny @ 82x63x35mm. I never thought I would see the day where this much power can be in this kind of small package.

It's Bruno Putzeys. What do you expect! lol He's pretty much the king of Class D amplifiers. Though I don't always like every single amp that he's made. The performance is hard to beat both in terms of sound and packaging! That he uses op-amps, discrete ones is something of a pet peeve of mine. I don't think that op-amps are necessary today, but they are useful voicing tools.
 
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