Audioholics goes off the reservation

[Putter]

Gene is the one who posted the review . Here is a quote from his initial post: "I tried the GAIA isolators on both of my reference systems featuring Revel Salon 2s and RBH Sound SVTR speakers. What I heard was nothing short of marvelous."
I was shocked and lost a ton of respect for AH when I read that review. And as amper42 stated above I too have noticed that many reviews at AH aren't reviews but read like advertisements.

Having read Audioholics through the years, I'd say they've always straddled the line between objective and non commercial and industry proponent loving everything. Introductions of new products are usually positively covered although with different levels of interest. In general they have gotten closer to the commercial. I recall years ago when they would do speaker comparisons.

Here are some FR measurements: https://isoacoustics.com/isoacoustics-testing-at-the-national-research-council-of-canada-nrc/

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Underwhelming, to say the least.

I do have a problem with the graph IsoAcoustics supplies. Maybe because I read it late at night, but it seems to show a great improvement in frequency response when the difference is actually vibration measurement because the frequency responses overlap making it misleading at least with a brief glance. My sense is that the confusing labeling was intentional.

 

[DSJR]

Interesting that neither the JBL M2 nor the Genelec W371A have spikes.

Neither did my ATC 100A's (or the smaller 50A's) but they didn't need them, as they were very heavy (I recall my 100A's were 85kg each - one reason why I had to let them go when I got married) and basically compressed the carpet to the point they either barely or didn't move at all once settled into place

Normal domestic speakers don't have the mass advantage and I suppose today, fully fitted carpets are out of vogue over here.

 

[DSJR]

Indeed but spikes couple not decouple.
There has been a lot of balderdash written about spikes as de-coupling. Maybe electronics engineers are confused by the spike's similarity to a diode symbol??

Frank sir, it's enthusiastic amateurs and less well versed reviewers confusing the terms most likely.

 

[mhardy6647]

Yeah and it's $800 for a pair lol.

Springs seem like the way to go, but how to find the right ones? Maybe these reasonably priced things could work. Or repurposed industrial anti-vibration mounts. The hard part seems to be making sure you get ones that will work for the right weight range.

Ironically? Coincidentally? Synchronistically? there's a discussion at AA (no, not that AA, the other one!) on this topic even now.

Speaker isolation devices - Analog Scott - General Asylum

Speaker isolation devices - Analog Scott - General Asylum

www.audioasylum.com

(I believe this particular selection was offered at least partially tongue-in-cheek, especially given those cheezy extension/compact hifi loudspeakers with the "cellular horn diffusers" )

 

[nstzya]

This thread appears to have gone off the reservation as well

 

[tktran303]

A couple of drops of olive oil carefully placed into your ear canal to dissolve ear wax is a medical cure. And it works most of the time; except for fully impacted cerumen.

And so do commercial products to dissolve ear wax, but does that mean the branded products you can buy at the local drug store are useless, the chemist a snake oil salesman, (pun intended), or the whole pharmaceutical industry is corrupt?

Oh, Come on.
This is the market.
This is capitalism.
Time and build a bridge and get over it guys.

Instead of flinging accusations at Gene.

 

[JJB70]

Vibration is one of those fields for which the analysis can be quite challenging, but once that is done the solutions are often quite straightforward. However, quite often people just see a simple fix without understanding the calculations and analytical work underpinning it to arrive at some strange conclusions. And saying a solution is straightforward is not the same as saying it is cheap. I used to do a lot of vibration analysis for warships (for which vibration is a rather important issue) and after mountains of analytical work most of the techniques to control vibration were very basic but also expensive to properly implement

 

[pozz]

Having read Audioholics through the years, I'd say they've always straddled the line between objective and non commercial and industry proponent loving everything. Introductions of new products are usually positively covered although with different levels of interest.

My take as well. From what I know of Audioholics, they have several types of content.

• Reviews with measurements as we know them.
• Apparently reviews without measurements, like this one.
• Product showcases (most of the text seems prompted by manufacturer claims).
• Articles of various kinds.

I think they expect readers to distinguish among them.

Still, stuff like this?

In addition to imaging, the effect on bass notes was physically and audibly noticeable. The bass energy that was rattling through the hardwood floor, sofa, and surrounding objects was mastered. But here’s the important nuance to that statement. Bass was mastered without being emasculated. It’s as though the GAIA effectively neutered the deleterious effects of the room and furnishings while letting the music run free. It wasn’t so much room correction as it was isolation.
...
Goal number two, did the IsoAcoustics GAIA address cabinet and room resonance issues? You can rest assured that among my first albums to play was YoYo Ma Plays Ennio Morricone. Even before I got to the point in the tracks I was looking for, I was struck by what seemed to be a tighter overall presentation to the music. Textures were cleaner. Instruments even more firmly planted in space and time.

...

Indulgent, uncritical writing.

 

[JJB70]

My take as well. From what I know of Audioholics, they have several types of content.

• Reviews with measurements as we know them.
• Apparently reviews without measurements, like this one.
• Product showcases (most of the text seems prompted by manufacturer claims).
• Articles of various kinds.

I think they expect readers to distinguish among them.

Still, stuff like this?

Indulgent, uncritical writing.

I don't know about audio, but in my own field I regularly read articles in technical journals which are lifted from manufacturer material whilst pretending to be independent articles. If you are familiar with the individuals concerned it's pretty easy to recognize syntax.

 

[Everett T]

I was hoping @Everett T would elaborate on what he meant.

There was a rule there for years about discussing politics. It always seemed to be allowed when it favored one side, which occurs in the "steam vent" not in audio threads. Trell can disagree, but it's what I felt.

 

[MattHooper]

Frequency response, of course.
If the speaker needs isolating it is because it is allowing spurious transmission of vibration to the environment causing added output at whatever frequency it is exciting in and around its mounting.

In terms of bass it depends strongly on the room construction but with suspended floors is the addition of floor radiation to that from the speaker, for example. Many people may like the extra

It seems I'm one of those that like the "extra." As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I tried both some cheap spring footers and some expensive spring isolation mechanisms (Townshend speaker bars) under my speakers. Sprund wood floor. Ultimately I preferred the speakers sitting directly on the floor, no spikes, nuthin'.

 

[MattHooper]

Yes, I've also heard these at audio shows, usually with Focal tower speakers. They do seem to change the sound a bit, but like you say, they raise the speakers about an inch.

Yes that is a problem. I have some isoacoustics isolation pucks that I'd bought to try under my turntable when building an isolation base (it turns out spring-based isolation worked best, by far, measurably, to decouple the base from floor born vibrations). I tried them at one point under my speakers and the sound seemed to change a bit (I don't dare express how, given the allergy on this site to subjective description), but not in a way I liked. But I figured it could have just been the change in speaker height.

Not too long ago when I was experimenting again with stuff under my speakers, including the spring based products, I was able to do a more apples to apples comparison. I had Herbies fat gliders under the speakers, good for moving them around, and could adjust the height of the speakers so that putting the isoacoustics pucks in didn't change the height. I still thought I heard a similar difference with the pucks in to the last time. And I still didn't prefer it.

BTW, I remember at least one youtube channel demo of the Isoacoustics footers where the sound was recorded before and after, without moving the speakers or raising the height. Here's one (though I think I've seen another too somewhere):

(I'm sure snippets of that could be made in to a proper blind test demo).

 

[Dal1as]

I shied away when politics started getting in the way of the hobby. When owner/operators force their political beliefs on their members, it creates unnecessary splits. There are some extremely knowledgeable members there and good advice to be given and had. I appreciated the orginal concept of objective over subjective too and was able to navigate around the distractions, unfortunately that has shifted. I'll still read speaker and electronics reviews, peruse the foru, but won't participate as of now.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a flame war.

Tell me about it. I got permanent banned from there because a speaker reviewer/moderator had a difference of opinion. He even sent me threatening messages. I didn't break any of the forum rules as other members pointed out at the time. I liked some of Gene's old reviews but AH and it's forum has gone downhill.

 

[TLEDDY]

A quotation from the review comments by Gene:

”got off ASR and deleted my account when I saw how toxic of an environment some folks make it over there…”

We here do get in to some spirited debate from time to time; differences of opinion make life interesting! This group is,
for the vast majority of the time, well self-disciplined and cordial, especially among the longer lived and well engineering educated experienced.

I have noticed an occasional interloper who seems intent on boiling the cauldron, soon to be moderated if stepping too far over the very liberal and understanding moderators.

A personal opinion: this forum is NOT toxic… no, make that a statement of fact! If one thinks it is toxic, it is appropriate to leave ASR.

 

[Dal1as]

Politics? I once was a regular reader of that forum but since finding ASR don't go there much anymore. Didn't know the forum had taken a political stance.

Yes it has. They have a political forum there which is a 1 way echo chamber where the moderators there don't even follow their own rules.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Tell me about it. I got permanent banned from there because a speaker reviewer/moderator had a difference of opinion. He even sent me threatening messages. I didn't break any of the forum rules as other members pointed out at the time.

A quick look at AH and it seems these are more conservative views/opinions.

Considering the fact that 90% of the media is only propogating the liberal viewpoint and tell you what to think on different subjects, it’s not strange to see people gather around a platform to share/discuss/propogate the conservative viewpoints.

If the media is 90% liberal minded, and America is about 50/50 liberal/conservative, people will find others ways to share their beliefs.

 

[Everett T]

A quick look at AH and it seems these are more conservative views/opinions.

Considering the fact that 90% of the media is only propogating the liberal viewpoint and tell you what to think on different subjects, it’s not strange to see people gather around a platform to share/discuss/propogate the conservative viewpoints.

If the media is 90% liberal minded, and America is about 50/50 liberal/conservative, people will find others ways to share their beliefs.

Definitely not right leaning...

 

[Dal1as]

A quick look at AH and it seems these are more conservative views/opinions.

Considering the fact that 90% of the media is only propogating the liberal viewpoint and tell you what to think on different subjects, it’s not strange to see people gather around a platform to share/discuss/propogate the conservative viewpoints.

If the media is 90% liberal minded, and America is about 50/50 liberal/conservative, people will find others ways to share their beliefs.

Actually it is the complete opposite. There are 2 issues I have seen with that forum. The politics does leak into the regular forum and is allowed if it is from a certain klick or 1 side. The other issue is that in the "Steam Vent" you have active moderators who partake in discussions and debate and will issue threats or ban you if you disagree with their "side". They will also send you threatening messages. Honestly that whole forum is run the opposite of how you should run one.

 

[MattHooper]

I think the moderation and the general atmosphere here is excellent.

Of course none of us are perfect. It seems every forum has at least one other forum griping about it. ;-)

 

[Frank Dernie]

Yes that is a problem. I have some isoacoustics isolation pucks that I'd bought to try under my turntable when building an isolation base (it turns out spring-based isolation worked best, by far, measurably, to decouple the base from floor born vibrations).

There are two things one can do, absorb and isolate. Lossy polymeric "blobs" absorb at high and medium but don't isolate well at low frequencies.
Undamped springs isolate best. Any damping you add works as a short circuit to vibration at higher frequencies so reduces the effectiveness of isolation but makes the unusual handling less strange to those un-used to it.

On a car, where the impact loads are broad band resonance will be excited, so dampers are needed and the firmer they are the more bumps get to occupants.
With a HiFi there will not be any "impact" type loading in normal use so the superior isolation given by no damping is feasible.

If the table or floor a TT is sitting on is wobbly footfall is effectively an impact load and may result in groove skipping with undamped suspension and cueing isn't what many people expect either
The reality is what is ideal for isolation is rarely used for `"convenience" reasons.