Advice on Active Monitors NOT for Nearfield Listening

[electricmonk]

What about active speakers that are more aimed at the hi-fi market than the studio? I'd think these would work well non-nearfield. Vanatoos and some of the discontinued (and thus discounted) Dynaudios are in your price range:

Vanatoo Transparent One Encore ($600)
Dynaudio Excite X14A ($850)
Dynaudio Xeos 2 ($700) or Xeos 4 ($1100, including the Connect wireless hub)

Thanks for these recommendations, in principal I don't have anything against hi-fi active speakers, but I already have a SMSL M500, so would kind of like to make use of the balanced outputs and it seems like getting something like this would, at least occasionally, require the use of an additional remote, which I don't like, and features like bluetooth are lost on me. But I will look more into these options, if only out of curiosity!

 

[electricmonk]

Curious if anyone has experience with the Presonus Eris E8 or E7 XT? Also thinking about increasing my budget to go with something like the ADAM A5X (maybe a used A7X?) or in that price range, but would I simply be better off with larger drivers for my application? Feel free to encourage or discourage me on that! There's also a consideration of diminishing returns, I don't think I have 'golden ears' or anything, but on the other hand I'm not someone who suffers from upgraditis, if I get something I'm happy with I'll use it until it dies, so additional cost for a much better item is justifiable.

@q3cpma Curious on your recommendations for what was out of my price range, though multi-thousand dollar+ options are not really something I can consider =)

 

[q3cpma]

Curious if anyone has experience with the Presonus Eris E8 or E7 XT?

Didn't find any. I emailed Presonus, let's see what BS they'll give me to avoid giving them.

Also thinking about increasing my budget to go with something like the ADAM A5X (maybe a used A7X?) or in that price range, but would I simply be better off with larger drivers for my application? Feel free to encourage or discourage me on that! There's also a consideration of diminishing returns, I don't think I have 'golden ears' or anything, but on the other hand I'm not someone who suffers from upgraditis, if I get something I'm happy with I'll use it until it dies, so additional cost for a much better item is justifiable.

Sadly, Adam doesn't give measurements for their A*X serie and the lack of waveguide unlike the T or S series makes me skeptical. I'd stay with the more modern T7V, personally.

@q3cpma Curious on your recommendations for what was out of my price range, though multi-thousand dollar+ options are not really something I can consider =)

Well, Genelec's 8030C (or 8040B, but not updated since 2004 and much more expensive) or Neumann's KH120A with a good subwoofer (not necessarily the same brand) are my usual recommendations. They always use the latest technologies in computer modelisation and make objective sound and reliability their absolute priorities. I'll indulge myself and list the pros common to both models:
* Built from cast aluminium with robust steel grills
* Cabinet optimised to reduce diffraction. See this simulation from Genelec:

* Both can go ridiculously loud (for example, the 8030C specifies "Maximum peak acoustic output per pair @ 1 m distance with music material: >= 110 dB")
* Go quite low for small speakers (-6 dB point at ~46 Hz for both)
* Very low hiss, documented in the specs (even for the Genelec using in-house class D amps)
* Amazing measurements:
8030C:

KH120A:

Maximum SPL at 1m (Red: 3% THD, Blue: 1% THD)

* Benefiting from extensive QC. To the point where any pair of Neumann monitor can be considered matched ("Reproduction accuracy between 100 Hz and 10 kHz: 100%, 80%, 50% of loudspeakers produced: ±0.97; ±0.40; ±0.23 dB").
* Designed and made in European countries (Finland for Genelec, Ireland or Czech Republic for Neumann)
* For me, the n°1 reason to buy from them: great transparency concerning their products, they give a lot of useful data. Neumann is way more exhaustive on that front, though.

For the price (~1100€/pair in Europe, 1400$ on Sweetwater), I could't find anything lacking; which is why I bought the 8030Cs. My upgradeitis is definitely "cured" (until I can buy Ones or ME Geithain's big guns).

 

[electricmonk]

Holy shit, no need to apologize for "indulging" yourself! This is extremely helpful! And I understand that you probably e-mailed presonus out of a personal curiosity, but thanks also for that, because I would sound like an idiot if I tried to ask anything. Seriously considering the Neumann and Genelec models after reading this explanation, thank you again!

Do you have recommendations for subwoofers? I have been thinking the Rythmic L12, given the positive review on here and also because they are local to me (Austin, Texas), but again, I am pretty clueless about the nuances of everything. As I mentioned, pretty unlikely that I can fit two subs in my space.

 

[q3cpma]

Sadly, this subwoofer requires an external crossover (e.g. MiniDSP) and some fiddling. Either you do that, or you find a hi-fi subwoofer with unamplified high-passed output (does that even exist?) or you buy a studio subwoofer. The problem is that these can be expensive when you want quality.

You have the cheap JBL LSR310S that's used by a lot of people here (it's at $299 on Sweetwater right now), Presonus' Temblor line looks good too ($329 for 8" and $429 for 10"). Kali's new monster, the WS-12 looks nice too in the not-too-expensive segment ($600).
After that, you go into expensive territory with high-tech models, sometimes sealed, with more detailed phase controls, complex DSP, etc... There's Genelec's 7050 & 7350 and Neumann's KH750DSP in that range.

 

[Jmudrick]

Sadly, this subwoofer requires an external crossover (e.g. MiniDSP) and some fiddling. Either you do that, or you find a hi-fi subwoofer with unamplified high-passed output (does that even exist?) or you buy a studio subwoofer. The problem is that these can be expensive when you want quality.

You have the cheap JBL LSR310S that's used by a lot of people here (it's at $299 on Sweetwater right now), Presonus' Temblor line looks good too ($329 for 8" and $429 for 10"). Kali's new monster, the WS-12 looks nice too in the not-too-expensive segment ($600).
After that, you go into expensive territory with high-tech models, sometimes sealed, with more detailed phase controls, complex DSP, etc... There's Genelec's 7050 & 7350 and Neumann's KH750DSP in that range.

Two of the JBL subs plus the Kali LP-6 is a pretty sweet system for $900 all in.

 

[q3cpma]

Two of the JBL subs plus the Kali LP-6 is a pretty sweet system for $900 all in.

Well, it does work very well, but:
* OP specified that he didn't want hiss, and these, like the cheap JBL are notorious on this level.
* Reading the THD specs (<3% from 80 Hz to 1.7 kHz and <2% above 1.7 kHz at 90 dB SPL @1m) makes it clear the volume headroom is limited. The 8030C has 50…100 Hz < 2% and >100 Hz < 0.5% at 85 dB SPL and the KH120A is <0.5% from 100 Hz onward at 95 dB SPL for comparison.
* The build quality isn't comparable and the 1 year warranty is bit light.
Really, you get what you pay for, even if the LP-6 is incredible at its price point, especially against the LSR306p. Personally, I'd take the expensive mains with the JBL sub(s).

 

[Jmudrick]

I can't imagine the hiss being audible in a living room situation.

More expensive wiil of course get you more, just a suggestion near the $800 budget.

 

[q3cpma]

I can't imagine the hiss being audible in a living room situation.

Well, that's true, but some people are more sensitive than others.

 

[electricmonk]

Sadly, this subwoofer requires an external crossover (e.g. MiniDSP) and some fiddling. Either you do that, or you find a hi-fi subwoofer with unamplified high-passed output (does that even exist?) or you buy a studio subwoofer. The problem is that these can be expensive when you want quality.

Is there a reason I can't (or shouldn't) use the unbalanced outs on the SMSL M500 for a sub like the L12? The M500 outputs on both the balanced and unbalanced outputs at the same time.

 

[q3cpma]

Is there a reason I can't (or shouldn't) use the unbalanced outs on the SMSL M500 for a sub like the L12? The M500 outputs on both the balanced and unbalanced outputs at the same time.

The signal to the mains won't be high-passed., which is important if you want to up the volume. Which is why I recommended the Presonus at the beginning, the bass cutoff can be used in this exact case.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I might be one of the few here to suggest you can do much better than the JBLs in your price range. Amir's measurements show them to be a competent speaker with a well-designed waveguide, but with significant issues in the most important area: frequency response.

They are quite good if your budget is $200, but you can do much better for $800.

Having said that, the JBLs have good controlled directivity and are therefore a good candidate for EQ correction, if that's a path you're willing to go down.

 

[Erik]

@q3cpma
In my experience the Genelec 7350A is a poorly designed subwoofer that makes astounding amount of port noise when trying to reproduce frequencies below 35 hertz. Also, it has no built-in crossover unless you are using it with GLM.

 

[q3cpma]

@q3cpma
In my experience the Genelec 7350A is a poorly designed subwoofer that makes astounding amount of port noise when trying to reproduce frequencies below 35 hertz. Also, it has no built-in crossover unless you are using it with GLM.

Let's say that I'm skeptical of that claim, especially since the incredibly large computer modeled port is their main selling point and Genelec isn't known for putting half-baked stuff on the market. Looking at user reviews on Thomann or Sweetwater, I see nothing about it, could be a faulty sample; I've also PM'd some people here for opinions on those LSE subwoofers, since the design is different enough to warrant presale curiosity.
But well, it could be true, I guess.

That part about needing GLM is indeed true, only the 7050C is suitable in this situation (forgot about it for a moment).

 

[Erik]

Let's say that I'm skeptical of that claim, especially since the incredibly large computer modeled port is their main selling point and Genelec isn't known for putting half-baked stuff on the market. Looking at user reviews on Thomann or Sweetwater, I see nothing about it, could be a faulty sample; I've also PM'd some people here for opinions on those LSE subwoofers, since the design is different enough to warrant presale curiosity.
But well, it could be true, I guess.

That part about needing GLM is indeed true, only the 7050C is suitable in this situation (forgot about it for a moment).

Maybe the incredibly large computer modeled port works well on the higher-end models, but not with the 7350A. I too wasn't expecting such a poor product coming from Genelec. And I found a number of other users reporting the same thing when I was investigating the issue.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/pro...-source-world-s-most-compact-coaxials-10.html

 

[q3cpma]

Maybe the incredibly large computer modeled port works well on the higher-end models, but not with the 7350A. I too wasn't expecting such a poor product coming from Genelec. And I found a number of other users reporting the same thing when I was investigating the issue.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/pro...-source-world-s-most-compact-coaxials-10.html

Well, sounds like it's only audible with sweeps, but still worrying. @Ilkka Rissanen, do you have any information? An intentional tradeoff, perhaps?

 

[LeftCoastTim]

Thanks for the advice, I'll try to get the sub sooner rather than later. What kind of dsp hardware do you use? This kind of thing is very new to me, but I can understand the value of having something like this!

I bought a used Behringer DEQ 2496. I hear people like the miniDSP.

 

[Erik]

Well, sounds like it's only audible with sweeps, but still worrying. @Ilkka Rissanen, do you have any information? An intentional tradeoff, perhaps?

The sad thing is that the port noise can be audible with music or movies (depending on the subwoofer placement, source material and playback level). But even when it's not really noticeable, it still bothers you - it's simply a psychological thing. If I would use this subwoofer, I would cut everything below 35 hertz, just to be sure. But there are significantly cheaper options available that play down to 35 Hz and have no such annoying problems. And the 22 dB at -6 dB specification is a joke. The flutter becomes absolutely horrendous at such low frequencies. I don't think you can imagine how bad it is. I too would have found it hard to believe in. But the port noise the 7350A makes is the worst I've ever heard. It was a big disappointment in Genelec for me.

 

[electricmonk]

Seems like it would not be difficult to get a pair of KH 120 A for a bit cheaper if I'm looking at used/open box. So at this point, I'm about 80% convinced on going with them (though maybe if Amir's review of the Presonus E5 XT happens to pop up and is very good, I'll start thinking about the E7 or E8 XT again).

More thoughts on studio subwoofers to go with the Neumanns? Would definitely not like to go the expensive route on the sub (and from what I understand, this would be the thing to, at least relatively, cheap out on, right?). The JBL LSR310S that a lot of people like and the Presonus Temblor 10 mentioned by @q3cpma are the only ones on my radar, since before this thread I was thinking more about hi-fi type subwoofers.

 

[q3cpma]

Seems like it would not be difficult to get a pair of KH 120 A for a bit cheaper if I'm looking at used/open box. So at this point, I'm about 80% convinced on going with them (though maybe if Amir's review of the Presonus E5 XT happens to pop up and is very good, I'll start thinking about the E7 or E8 XT again).

More thoughts on studio subwoofers to go with the Neumanns? Would definitely not like to go the expensive route on the sub (and from what I understand, this would be the thing to, at least relatively, cheap out on, right?). The JBL LSR310S that a lot of people like and the Presonus Temblor 10 mentioned by @q3cpma are the only ones on my radar, since before this thread I was thinking more about hi-fi type subwoofers.

About the Neumann, that's indeed the best choice. No other monitor this size can go this loud, except the JBL 705p, which is twice the price, a lot bigger and not built as well.
For subwoofers, I'd take the JBL without a doubt, because benefiting from a 5 year warranty on such a cheap product is definitely worth it. And that $100 Sweetwater promotion makes it mighty attractive, right now.