All in one unit better than Motu M4 or additional DAC+Amp?

[midnightsun]

Hi!

I literally just started getting back into audio stuff and looked to expand my horizont. So I talked to a local seller and got a test package to try and see what I like.
Among those:
Sony MDR7506
AKG K-702
Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro (250 Ohm)
Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro (250 Ohm)
Hifiman Ananda
Fiio M11 Pro
RME ADI-2 DAC FS

In addition to that I'm gonna get a microphone during the next days. Options are Rode NT-1A, NT1, Shure SM7B. My girlfriend does a little bit of singing and home recording and has a Behringer UMC 204 (the old one before the HD).

Long story short: I'm probably gonna get the DT 770 in 80 Ohms for my girlfriend and am seriously considering to keep the Ananda for myself.
In terms of DAC/Amplifier... I'm having a very hard time. At first I read on a bunch of forums that you *need* something like the ADI-2 because otherwise *fill here audiophile voodoo bs*.
So I did a bunch of research and tests on the internet over the last few days and this is my verdict:
1) I cannot distinct between 320kbps and flac (ABX Test, 62% and 80% result, but I felt like I was just guessing the entire time. Not a single time did I think "yes, I can hear a difference here for sure").
2) Sometimes I cannot distinct between 128kbps and 320kbps (another online test, not ABX though. Choose 1 out of 3 for 6 tracks)
3) I'm not sure if I can distinct between my phone (Samsung Galaxy Note 8), the ADI-2 and the Fiio M11 Pro when listening to the Ananda. However, I ended up smiling a lot more when using the ADI-2 - but maybe only because I'm a tech nerd.
4) On the jitter test (linked somewhere here in the forum) I can just barely (maybe imagination?) here 2µs of random jitter while music is playing

So far the stuff which hopefully tells you about my "listening abilities" and experience better than my trying to use fancy words to describe sound.

5) even though I don't believe that I need/can tell the difference/deserve the ADI-2 I really like it and am a little tempted to keep it. Love the 1/4 and 3.5mm jack and that basically every part of the test here in the forum was just mastered with such ease. I have an engineering background and just really appreciate good engineering and like it if people optimize the heck out of something

and now to the main question:
6) seeing that I'm not sure if I really "need" a DAC/Amp and my girlfriends USB Audio Interface is neither the newest nor the best I was considering not keeping the ADI-2 and getting an all in one device instead.
Reading up here on the forum the Motu M4 seems to be a really nice option for that. It has easily enough inputs (actually the M2 would probably suffice too) and checks every box - just the Headphone Amp is a little disappointing.
Since the current music and recording table is quite small I'd appreciate to have everything in one device to keep it tidy and save space. Is there anything out there like the M2/M4, maybe up to 400-600$ that is at least as good as the both Motu's but with a better headphone amplifier?
The alternative would probably be to get the M2 or M4 together with a Topping DX3 Pro as DAC and Headphone Amp.

I just have to say, I have already almost fallen in love with the ADI-2. That's why here is my (unrealistic and unnecessary) wishlist:
- 2x 6.3 jacks so that we can listen to a mix together with 2 headphones
- works with IEM's (planning on getting good IEM's next).
- would LOVE to have a display with a spectrum analyzer like the ADI-2!!
- DSP and EQ would be fantastic!

Ok, I honestly don't expect any of the features of my wishlist to be matched but maybe at least for the rest.
a) do you think with the information I gave you that the DAC and especially headphone amp. in the M4 would suffice for my experience and the 80 Ohms DT 770 and Hifiman Ananda?
b) would there be any better option? So basically a "higher end" alternative which is not the ADI-2 Pro (up to ~600$) and is not just about adding more in/outputs but actually better ADC/DAC and amplifiers?
c) if not, is the M4 + DX3 Pro a good choice and does it make sense for my usecase?

thank you very much for the help!

 

[NDC]

Regarding the microphone, I highly recommend the Rode NT-1. Podcastage has a fantastic comparative review of it on YouTube. Very low self noise and very neutral frequency response.

 

[NDC]

Re: audio interface - at the price it’s very hard to beat the Motu M4. If you can get it (stock issues at the moment) I recommend it. I don’t think the headphone amp will present any audible issues - it’s quite a good implementation for an audio interface. Julian Krause did a good comparative review of it versus other audio interfaces on YouTube as well.

 

[dfuller]

For your wishlist, the ADI-2 Pro fits the role the best. However, you must take into account that it does not have mic preamps built in, so you'll need some external mic pres. I view this as something of a plus, as you can get something you actually like the sound of instead of a pretty "tastes like water" IC mic preamp. I know the idea of having anything be colored is anathema to half this forum, but on the creative side of things, a little distortion can be nice. The M4 is a very decent piece of kit for the money, but there are better out there. I love RME just because their drivers are competently written, which is a remarkable thing for audio on Windows.


With regard to microphones, that's a quite personal choice. I can say for sure that you should skip the NT1A, as it's painfully bright. The NT1 is okay, but nothing special to me. The SM7B is cool, but it needs a ton of gain to produce an appreciable signal at the output of the mic preamp compared to condensers. I personally really like the sound of mics based on K47 style capsules, so a Roswell Mini K47 or a Warm WA47Jr would be a good choice. This is a time to spend a lot of time listening to demos.

 

[midnightsun]

@NDC yes, the shortest lead time would be about a week (but you never know).
I have seen the Julian Krause review and read the one here in the forums. THX for the hint with the mic review!

@dfuller I was afraid tha ADI-2 Pro would fit best - but I'm not willing to spend this much money for a (then again) "incomplete" unit just now.
When you said that there are better out there, did you also mean in the mentioned price bracket or more in general, like the ADI-2 Pro?

Before I watched videos like the Julian Krause one and read the reviews here in the forum on the ADI-2 and Behringer I was almost ready to believe that most of the differences between devices of different price classes would be completely inaudible and that there would be absolutely no benefit going from a entry level DAC/Amp to a high end one. Now I'm not sure anymore. The Behringer UMC 204 really has a LOT of noise on the phono out. And especially Julian Krause did a very good job on explaining how the measurements might affect the listening experience (I still have a lot to learn before I can hope to understand the tests in this forum entirely) and now I think that I was too fast in assuming that "nothing" is perceivable. Now a few things sound "more realistic" again.
Do you guys think that it might be possible to hear a difference between the M4 and ADI-2 DAC FS?

 

[dfuller]

Eh... Probably not. And the DAC FS has no input options, so that's not ideal either. If you're okay with spending that kind of money, I'd be looking at a Universal Audio Apollo Twin X or an RME Babyface Pro FS. The Apollo has the benefit of being able to run processing on DSP "on the way in" with very minimal latency, so you can record those plugins as though they were hardware.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Just a suggestion, consider a Lewitt LCT 440 Pure microphone. Price is around $269, and it is a better choice than the NT1a in my opinion. I also agree with dfuller the NT1a is bright. It is something you'll continually fight. The NT1 was a different mike and better sounding. I think the LCT440 is better than either.

I'd hate to get rid of the RME it is just such a nice bit of kit. I can understand what you are saying. And I've not had hands on one, the little screen and menu's might irritate me.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I've never particularly liked the NT1A highs peak either, at least on vocals. The current NT1 (which is very much alive and kicking) is a good one though. Others I've liked samples of would be AT2035 and Sennheiser MK4. I rather like the cheap t.bone SC400, too, although I've had to EQ out an ~3 dB ca. 4-8 kHz dip on mine - maybe I should inspect the diaphragm for dust.

Do you guys think that it might be possible to hear a difference between the M4 and ADI-2 DAC FS?

Purely in terms of DAC, no, but the MOTU's headphone output never delivers more than 20-odd mW into any impedance even if very cleanly, so for anything substantially less efficient than a Sennheiser HD600/650 or similar an external headphone amplifier is recommended (even a $99 JDS Labs Atom would extend its capabilities quite substantially, and if in doubt I would probably prefer having two of those and a splitter cable as volume preferences do differ between people).

On the recording side, the AK5554 ADC in the MOTU displays a bit more digital filter passband ripple than I like at up to 96 kHz in particular, and unlike RME they're not doing anything about it (and probably can't except possibly driver-side). You can always upgrade to e.g. a Focusrite Clarett 2Pre, a MOTU 624, the aforementioned current RME Babyface or other somewhat higher-grade interfaces though.
I am not sure whether this even is a particularly relevant consideration for a bit of homerecording anyway - a single pass of A/D and D/A is not likely to be a problem even with 0.06 dB of ripple peak-peak, and you can always reduce it to less than half at 192 kHz or eliminate it altogether at 384 kHz. (Here's to hoping that your DAW has a good resampler, but if in doubt you can always use Audacity - WASAPI input required on Windows for 24/32-bit recording.) Distortion performance is good either way, and dynamic range is very large for a little bus-powered interface and getting close to the next tier up.

 

[pierre]

RME has cheaper interfaces that you can find on the used market. Fireface UC for example or Babyface as noted above.
it is normal to NOT be able to ear differences between interfaces so cheap one does it well.
Personnally I am more looking for
1. stability
2. Quality of connectors (cheap plastic stuff never last or get wobbly)
3. Number of,input/output (I always underestimate how many I will need)
4. Loopback needs to work
5. Audio performance if I want to be « professional » but in practice that’s more for piece of mind

 

[midnightsun]

wow, thank you so much for the great many answers!
Ok, I guess the consensus is that I would probably not be able to tell the difference between the Motu and the ADI-2.
I think I'm gonna get the M2 (M4 has terrible lead times atm) and compare them as long as I still have the ADI-2. If (as I suspect) I in fact am not able to tell any difference I'll probably stick with that for now (whether I'm gonna keep the ADI-2 is an entirely different story.. I feel strangely attached to it, even though it is so expensive and I know, that it doesn't provide any audible benefit...). If not, I'm gonna get either the JDS Labs Atom (heard a lot of good things about it) or the DX3 Pro (which I think amirm prises quite highly).

In terms of microphone I'll have to look for a place where I can actually test a few of them or at least do some more research. spontaneously I'd tend towards the NT1 now but there where a few new mentions which I've never heard before so the research goes on!

thank you so much for all the help!!!

 

[AnalogSteph]

I mean, don't get me wrong, the ADI-2 DAC is a great device in terms of functionality and quality and does have substantially more to offer than an M2 in the output department (it's basically a complete digital preamplifier with a super wide output dynamic range, a full-grown headphone amplifier and parametric EQ plus other features implemented via FPGA). It's just that you'll pay twice as much ($$$$) for the ADI-2 Pro if you want something with external input capability, and that still needs an external microphone amplifier. Way oversized for what you need.

You could still combine the ADI-2 DAC with another, way cheaper audio interface for the recording side if you wanted, of course. If you can accept a higher clutter factor, you can often find substantially cheaper options in general.

Two YT channels you will probably want to have a look at:
Podcastage has loads of microphone reviews among other things
Julian Krause has measured various audio interfaces

 

[spnc]

I've never particularly liked the NT1A highs peak either, at least on vocals. The current NT1 (which is very much alive and kicking) is a good one though. Others I've liked samples of would be AT2035 and Sennheiser MK4. I rather like the cheap t.bone SC400, too, although I've had to EQ out an ~3 dB ca. 4-8 kHz dip on mine - maybe I should inspect the diaphragm for dust.


Purely in terms of DAC, no, but the MOTU's headphone output never delivers more than 20-odd mW into any impedance even if very cleanly, so for anything substantially less efficient than a Sennheiser HD600/650 or similar an external headphone amplifier is recommended (even a $99 JDS Labs Atom would extend its capabilities quite substantially, and if in doubt I would probably prefer having two of those and a splitter cable as volume preferences do differ between people).

On the recording side, the AK5554 ADC in the MOTU displays a bit more digital filter passband ripple than I like at up to 96 kHz in particular, and unlike RME they're not doing anything about it (and probably can't except possibly driver-side). You can always upgrade to e.g. a Focusrite Clarett 2Pre, a MOTU 624, the aforementioned current RME Babyface or other somewhat higher-grade interfaces though.
I am not sure whether this even is a particularly relevant consideration for a bit of homerecording anyway - a single pass of A/D and D/A is not likely to be a problem even with 0.06 dB of ripple peak-peak, and you can always reduce it to less than half at 192 kHz or eliminate it altogether at 384 kHz. (Here's to hoping that your DAW has a good resampler, but if in doubt you can always use Audacity - WASAPI input required on Windows for 24/32-bit recording.) Distortion performance is good either way, and dynamic range is very large for a little bus-powered interface and getting close to the next tier up.

Hi do you think I need two JDS Atom Labs with my Motu M4 and new cans of 1990 Pro? I'm about to purchase one Atom but seeing your comment makes me wonder if two would be safer? Apparently one is a hell of powerful for most people but I like to have the most headroom as possible.

And in this case could you point me to which cable(s) and splitter I need altogether? I'll be purchasing those from Thomann.

Cheers!

 

[Lambda]

maybe up to 400-600$ that is at least as good as the both Motu's but with a better headphone amplifier?

An other motu https://motu.com/en-us/products/gen5/ultralite-mk5/

Options are Rode NT-1A, NT1, Shure SM7B

The NT1 is "better" then the NT1A
the SM7B is not worth it... Get a 15€ Beringer dynamic mic and play with it to see if you leike this kind of sound