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Cardioid Loudspeakers - Are they worth it?

kimmosto

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Few random thoughts about cardioid for bass and low mid.

Single cardioid radiator with DI~5 dB is not very impressive amount of directivity. It's usually audible and subjectively significant (though not clearly visible in statistical features). Big boxed cone e.g. 15" is as directive down to 300 Hz so main goal for complex narrow/small designs such as narrow resistance box or low-passed side woofers in narrow cabinet is to be small and more beautiful than big box.

No problem to say that resistance enclosure eats all available power and excursion at bass so it's not the most dynamic application though quite adequate as 2x18". Also horn loaded systems with low passed side woofers far from the mouth are possible so generalizations about capacity and sensitivity of cardioids are not good idea.

As we can see from measurements in the bathroom (with brick walls, concrete floor and ceramic tiles) and semi-open living space, leaking application is able to adapt to any room size/volume. Pressure below the lowest mode can be fully okay without level or tilt adjustment. In addition, mixed source is quite immune for source position. Those are clear advantages especially if owner does not prefer room EQ or multiple subwoofers or room is not dedicated for listening i.e. speakers cannot be anywhere ~ in the best places (vertically and horizontally) for bass performance with other source types.

Axial modes exist also with mixed bass source so listening point should be selected carefully if rear side of the room is not diffusive or acoustically large. Reflections from solid flat rear wall (=behind the listener) can initiate quite massive dip to mid bass. Otherwise application is very flexible for almost any room size and typical speaker positions in living rooms which are difficult for monopoles and dipoles.

Ideal textbook cardioid is not very valuable. I prefer super-cardioid having lower total power to rear. Some...many resistance boxes are hyper-cardioids at midrange with only 6 dB attenuation to 180 deg. That probably needs some space on the back, but could create deeper sound stage (and higher DI) than ideal cardioid.

But if speakers can be in any ~ in the best places (close enough or far enough from front wall and corners) and also listening point can be optimized, there is not much need for cardioid bass. For example I can and have lived without, though possible locations for monopoles are limited. Dipoles would be in the middle of - everything which is no no for other family.
 
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srrxr71

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For many years I’ve been lusting over the 8C. Finally ready to pull the trigger and suddenly I feel like I want 8351b plus sub instead. The ls50w taught me something about point source.

Throughout my audio journey it would bother me to no end how despite spending all that time and money on a system you have to sit like a statue to listen. Move your head, slouch a little, sit up straight. All these cause the sound to change very noticeably.

You then realize that if you paid to hear a standard of sound you don’t know even what it is meant to be.

For example I’ve had the Solo 6be for a decade now. I always thought the acoustic axis was between the woofer and tweeter. I listened that way. Just this year we saw measurements on ASR for this monitor. What’s the advice here? Sit with ears at or slightly above tweeter position. How was I supposed to know that? Even if I knew should I have constructed a vice for my body so it never slouches?

Over the years I’ve come to realize that at least for me some of these practical/physical/comfort factors matter a lot in terms of enjoyment.

In room response matters a lot too but if it’s not stable and you have to be OCD about your posture then I don’t know what the point is? The whole reason we spend so much is to get over the OCD of audiophilia by spending enough to buy something that makes us feel we have at least close to the best that can be offered with current technology and knowledge. Now if that changes audibly based on how you are sitting then it really defeats the purpose at least for me.

The solution involves a pair of W371 apparently and winning the lottery. Possibly a point source version of the 8C. We can only hope.
 

Absolute

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Cardioide isn't worth it if you're sacrificing performance in other places. Here's a comparison between a single Kii Three and a single Devialet Phantom Silver in the exact same placement (near corner) in my room;

phantom og kii frekvensrespons 20-500.jpg


The Phantom is stupidly bassheavy, but disregarding that there's practically no benefit with cardioide below the schroeder (around 200 hz here) and very little above that. You will gain some clarity between that and up to a certain point, but you'll be giving up efficiency and get more distortion as a side-effect. Take a look at distortion plots on Dutch 8c and Kii Three to see what I mean.
A couple of subs with EQ and some absorption will give you better effect without the penalties, but will be uglier.

If you're not planning on pushing the speaker to the point where the distortion comes into play or can't/won't use subs and/or absorption, then cardioide will make the sound a little bit better. I wouldn't buy a certain speaker just because it has cardioide, but it would be a welcome bonus.
 

abdo123

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Cardioide isn't worth it if you're sacrificing performance in other places. Here's a comparison between a single Kii Three and a single Devialet Phantom Silver in the exact same placement (near corner) in my room;

View attachment 150417

The Phantom is stupidly bassheavy, but disregarding that there's practically no benefit with cardioide below the schroeder (around 200 hz here) and very little above that. You will gain some clarity between that and up to a certain point, but you'll be giving up efficiency and get more distortion as a side-effect. Take a look at distortion plots on Dutch 8c and Kii Three to see what I mean.
A couple of subs with EQ and some absorption will give you better effect without the penalties, but will be uglier.

If you're not planning on pushing the speaker to the point where the distortion comes into play or can't/won't use subs and/or absorption, then cardioide will make the sound a little bit better. I wouldn't buy a certain speaker just because it has cardioide, but it would be a welcome bonus.


can you give us more details?

the dimensions of the room, the exact distance from boundaries .etc

Because personally i think there is a gigantic difference in the 200Hz to 300Hz region, which i think is a boundary response that the Kii Three is alleviating.

I think you're mistaken about the distortion of the Kii three, it uses 6 drivers to get the cardioid directivity, i don't think it has as much distortion as the D&D that relies on out of phase sound leaking out of the cabinet.
 

srrxr71

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Cardioide isn't worth it if you're sacrificing performance in other places. Here's a comparison between a single Kii Three and a single Devialet Phantom Silver in the exact same placement (near corner) in my room;

View attachment 150417

The Phantom is stupidly bassheavy, but disregarding that there's practically no benefit with cardioide below the schroeder (around 200 hz here) and very little above that. You will gain some clarity between that and up to a certain point, but you'll be giving up efficiency and get more distortion as a side-effect. Take a look at distortion plots on Dutch 8c and Kii Three to see what I mean.
A couple of subs with EQ and some absorption will give you better effect without the penalties, but will be uglier.

If you're not planning on pushing the speaker to the point where the distortion comes into play or can't/won't use subs and/or absorption, then cardioide will make the sound a little bit better. I wouldn't buy a certain speaker just because it has cardioide, but it would be a welcome bonus.
So it seems like there are better ways to deal with under 200Hz room issues. Multi sub I suppose with the added kicker that between 80-200Hz sounds can be localized.

So something like a (pair of) rhythmik FM8 would still need to be roughly in front and left and right or just in front?
 

Absolute

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can you give us more details?

the dimensions of the room, the exact distance from boundaries .etc

Because personally i think there is a gigantic difference in the 200Hz to 300Hz region, which i think is a boundary response that the Kii Three is alleviating.

I think you're mistaken about the distortion of the Kii three, it uses 6 drivers to get the cardioid directivity, i don't think it has as much distortion as the D&D that relies on out of phase sound leaking out of the cabinet.
I can, but not right now. I'm fiddling with my M2 speakers, adding protection cap to the insanely expensive Beryllium driver and experimenting with stuffing in the cabinet. :D

Try looking here; https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...versus-kii-three-bxt.5546/page-14#post-213412
 

Jose Hidalgo

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For example I’ve had the Solo 6be for a decade now. I always thought the acoustic axis was between the woofer and tweeter. I listened that way. Just this year we saw measurements on ASR for this monitor. What’s the advice here? Sit with ears at or slightly above tweeter position. How was I supposed to know that?
IMHO you should have known that regardless of the loudspeaker, sound directionality increases with frequency. So treble is very directional while bass is much less. So logically the acoustic axis must be the tweeter axis or very close to it. Which is why many loudspeaker manufacturers put their tweeters at sitting ear height (around 90-95 cm), or higher but aimed lower in that case. Just my two cents.
 

Absolute

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IMHO you should have known that regardless of the loudspeaker, sound directionality increases with frequency. So treble is very directional while bass is much less. So logically the acoustic axis must be the tweeter axis or very close to it. Which is why many loudspeaker manufacturers put their tweeters at sitting ear height (around 90-95 cm), or higher but aimed lower in that case. Just my two cents.
With some distance between the drivers it's very possible to get a huge suckout around the crossover depending on the listening axis and distance to the speaker.

Changing the timing between the drivers will adjust the optimal summation axis.
 

srrxr71

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IMHO you should have known that regardless of the loudspeaker, sound directionality increases with frequency. So treble is very directional while bass is much less. So logically the acoustic axis must be the tweeter axis or very close to it. Which is why many loudspeaker manufacturers put their tweeters at sitting ear height (around 90-95 cm), or higher but aimed lower in that case. Just my two cents.
https://gearspace.com/board/high-end/220003-focal-twin-6-vertical-position.html

Take a look at post 30 where a focal rep says it is between the tweeter and woofer. They were not more than 24” from my ears. These are for the twins but from memory the same was said for the solos.

Eventually I arrived at sitting closer to the tweeter height though experimentation. However the minute you slouch a little (especially at such near range) the sound changes.

When my 8341s come in problem solved. Not going back to non coaxial especially for near field use.
 

Jose Hidalgo

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https://gearspace.com/board/high-end/220003-focal-twin-6-vertical-position.html

Take a look at post 30 where a focal rep says it is between the tweeter and woofer. They were not more than 24” from my ears. These are for the twins but from memory the same was said for the solos.
Of course coaxial speakers are a theoretical ideal, and with non-coaxial speakers it's all a matter of compromise :) But the fact that the person you mention works at Focal doesn't prove anything (I only believe scientific arguments - a lot of Audioquest reps claim that their cables are magical, and I don't believe a single one of them :D). Plus in that same thread (posts > 30) people seem to be going against his recommendations.

Anyway, at least the directionality of sound being closely related to frequency is backed up by solid science. What I mean by that is that the acoustic axis should always be very close to the tweeter axis (unless you're listening to music with no high frequencies at all of course). The exception would of course be for people who can't hear high frequencies. So maybe for older people the acoustic axis could move a bit towards the midrange. But tweeter frequencies of, say, 2500 to 10.000 Hz remain very hearable for almost anybody, so...
 

escott82

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Wouldn’t a cardioid speaker be rather useless in a home theatre setup where you have subs? Seems like a lot of them have pretty high distortion in the 150 and under range anyway.
I’d cross them over to subs just like my towers. So if you are using subs with them do they still benefit?
 

dasdoing

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afaisi the effect is more visable on the unsmoothed graph

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index.php


Red JBL LSR 308
Black Martin Logan reQuest

 

ferrellms

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It seems both JJ and Dr. Toole think omni-bass is the way to go. (JJ's post, follow up question, clarification; Floyd Toole's post)
I am interested in Toole's reaction to cardioid speakers. As far as I can tell, no comments, no listening, testing. I do feel that cardioid speakers are an important and state-of-the-art improvement, and some of Toole's ideas may or not be accurate in regard to them.
 

dasdoing

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I am interested in Toole's reaction to cardioid speakers. As far as I can tell, no comments, no listening, testing. I do feel that cardioid speakers are an important and state-of-the-art improvement, and some of Toole's ideas may or not be accurate in regard to them.

I'd say it's a different approach. Tool seem to focus on seamlessly integrating speakers into a room, whereas cardioids are designed to "eliminate" (part of) the room.
 

Emlin

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I'd say it's a different approach. Tool seem to focus on seamlessly integrating speakers into a room, whereas cardioids are designed to "eliminate" (part of) the room.
But surely seamless integration is aided by cardioids. I certainly can't see them hindering it.
 
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