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Crossover-less Passive Speakers

watchnerd

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Both the JBL M2 (sold without internal crossovers) and my recent exploration of the "super integrated" amp market, several of which have built-in DSP crossover capabilities, have me wonder if in the future we may see passive speakers being sold with no crossover whatsoever -- the crossover will be implemented external in DSP by the amp.

This is basically what the M2 already does.

In addition to the usual active crossover benefits, this would also allow for a fully integrated crossover / EQ / tone control / impedance adjustment (a la Technics) / excursion control (a la Devialet) and more, all in one box, as opposed to separate boxes for crossover, amplification, and room correction.

I'm thinking of personally implementing this by getting a 2 way with great drivers, ripping out the crossover, and doing all the electronics work via DSP outside.

The precedent for all of this is car audio, where bare drivers have been sold separately from amps and crossovers for decades.

Could it happen to home audio, too?
 

Cosmik

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I'm thinking of personally implementing this by getting a 2 way with great drivers, ripping out the crossover, and doing all the electronics work via DSP outside.
People struggle on with two-ways - and the consequent need for great drivers that can only patch over some of the problems - because of the traditional problems with passive crossovers. One of the advantages of DSP is that those problems fall away. A three-way will give much better results, and far more easily, than a two-way.
 

Soniclife

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Naim did this for years, their passive speakers had the crossover on the back, and leads from the crossover to the drive units, if you went active you just removed the crossover and plugged directly into the drive units. You could buy the speakers without the crossover (for less money), or buy the crossover as a separate item. I'm sure they were not the only ones that this this.
 

Soniclife

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I've always been surprised more passive speakers don't come with the crossover in an external fancy box, to be put in the equipment rack, if for nothing else so more fancy cable could be sold to go between the crossover and the speakers. Given the fantasy paranoia about bad vibes in components it seems odd that putting passive crossover inside speakers is OK for most audiophiles.
 

DonH56

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Adding an external box costs more and I would assume there is a legitimate fear of miswiring and owners losing the external box. And audiophiles might not accept another cable in the path, seeing how bad they are for sound and all that. For less cost and hopefully less chance of miswiring and additional set of jumpers that bypass the internal crossover could be added.
 
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watchnerd

watchnerd

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People struggle on with two-ways - and the consequent need for great drivers that can only patch over some of the problems - because of the traditional problems with passive crossovers. One of the advantages of DSP is that those problems fall away. A three-way will give much better results, and far more easily, than a two-way.

Sure, I thought I'd just start with a 2 way as a first effort to be cheap and I have several lying around that I won't cry about if I fry their tweeters.
 
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watchnerd

watchnerd

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Adding an external box costs more and I would assume there is a legitimate fear of miswiring and owners losing the external box. And audiophiles might not accept another cable in the path, seeing how bad they are for sound and all that. For less cost and hopefully less chance of miswiring and additional set of jumpers that bypass the internal crossover could be added.

How is there another cable in the path?

If it's an integrated amp with built-in DSP, no extra cables are needed.
 

March Audio

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Both the JBL M2 (sold without internal crossovers) and my recent exploration of the "super integrated" amp market, several of which have built-in DSP crossover capabilities, have me wonder if in the future we may see passive speakers being sold with no crossover whatsoever -- the crossover will be implemented external in DSP by the amp.

This is basically what the M2 already does.

In addition to the usual active crossover benefits, this would also allow for a fully integrated crossover / EQ / tone control / impedance adjustment (a la Technics) / excursion control (a la Devialet) and more, all in one box, as opposed to separate boxes for crossover, amplification, and room correction.

I'm thinking of personally implementing this by getting a 2 way with great drivers, ripping out the crossover, and doing all the electronics work via DSP outside.

The precedent for all of this is car audio, where bare drivers have been sold separately from amps and crossovers for decades.

Could it happen to home audio, too?
I doubt you will see this. It is a very small DIY market which requires good technical knowledge to implement properly. However I am confident the market in active DSP speakers with built in electronics is going to expand rapidly.

I would definitely go for the external DSP XO, my experience has been very positive with this.

What "super integrated" amps did you use?
 
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watchnerd

watchnerd

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Naim did this for years, their passive speakers had the crossover on the back, and leads from the crossover to the drive units, if you went active you just removed the crossover and plugged directly into the drive units. You could buy the speakers without the crossover (for less money), or buy the crossover as a separate item. I'm sure they were not the only ones that this this.

Interesting. Did the Linn convertible actives work the same way?
 
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watchnerd

watchnerd

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I doubt you will see this. It is a very small DIY market which requires good technical knowledge to implement properly. However I am confident the market in active DSP speakers with built in electronics is going to expand rapidly.

I would definitely go for the external DSP XO, my experience has been very positive with this.

What "siper integrated" amps did you use?

I haven't done it yet. Just ordered a Devialet Pro 400.
 

DonH56

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How is there another cable in the path?

If it's an integrated amp with built-in DSP, no extra cables are needed.


The original topic was crossover-less passive speakers, and one response was to add an external crossover box to facilitate replacing the crossover. If that were done then those using the external crossover box would have additional (short) speaker cables from the box to the speaker. Magnepan and some other speakers used to utilize external crossover boxes for some speakers, BTW.
 

Soniclife

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Adding an external box costs more and I would assume there is a legitimate fear of miswiring and owners losing the external box. And audiophiles might not accept another cable in the path, seeing how bad they are for sound and all that. For less cost and hopefully less chance of miswiring and additional set of jumpers that bypass the internal crossover could be added.
Costs more, must sound better ;) This is why I'm surprised it not done more.
Miswiring would be legitimate, but easy to work around with custom plugs for each freq at both ends.
I don't get your point about more wire, you replace a long single run to the speakers with a short run to the box, and then use long crossed over freq range cables to the drivers. Think of it like a zipper in the almost all down position, compared to almost all up.
 

Soniclife

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The original topic was crossover-less passive speakers, and one response was to add an external crossover box to facilitate replacing the crossover. If that were done then those using the external crossover box would have additional (short) speaker cables from the box to the speaker. Magnepan and some other speakers used to utilize external crossover boxes for some speakers, BTW.
Ah, is your point not that there is more wire, but more connectors in the path? That's true, but similar to how bi-wire works out in most speakers.
 

Soniclife

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I haven't done it yet. Just ordered a Devialet Pro 400.
Will be interested to see what support you get from Devialet if you want to do more than a simple high pass low pass crossover the configurator supports. I'm sure they have full blown convolution capability built in, but I'm not sure they will expose it to end users, but I hope they do.
 

DonH56

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Costs more, must sound better ;) This is why I'm surprised it not done more.
Miswiring would be legitimate, but easy to work around with custom plugs for each freq at both ends.
I don't get your point about more wire, you replace a long single run to the speakers with a short run to the box, and then use long crossed over freq range cables to the drivers. Think of it like a zipper in the almost all down position, compared to almost all up.

I would run a single pair of wires (one cable, + and - wires) from amp to crossover, placing the crossover near the speaker, then add two (for a two-way) more short cable pairs from the crossover to woofer and tweeter. Or you could do as you say, placing the crossover near the amp, using a short cable to the crossover then two longer cables to the speaker drivers (again assumes a two-way design). Either way the average user must add two more cables to his (her, its) system. More if it is a three- or more-way speaker. Does it matter? Probably not, but is more to deal with, though as noted above could result in a market for short cables. Heck, you can spend $100 on a upgraded jumper for your current speakers, what an opportunity!

Except for the hassle factor of placing and wiring the box, it seems like a good idea that never panned out in the marketplace. Getting the crossover out of the speaker enclosure isolates from cabinet vibration as well as higher sonic pressure waves within the enclosure, increases available cabinet volume slightly, and provides more flexibility for active or upgraded/tweaked passive crossover designs. I am just guessing (speculating, if you like more syllables) that the added cost and hassle for most consumers made (make) it a no-go in the marketplace.
 

Thomas savage

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I would run a single pair of wires (one cable, + and - wires) from amp to crossover, placing the crossover near the speaker, then add two (for a two-way) more short cable pairs from the crossover to woofer and tweeter. Or you could do as you say, placing the crossover near the amp, using a short cable to the crossover then two longer cables to the speaker drivers (again assumes a two-way design). Either way the average user must add two more cables to his (her, its) system. More if it is a three- or more-way speaker. Does it matter? Probably not, but is more to deal with, though as noted above could result in a market for short cables. Heck, you can spend $100 on a upgraded jumper for your current speakers, what an opportunity!

Except for the hassle factor of placing and wiring the box, it seems like a good idea that never panned out in the marketplace. Getting the crossover out of the speaker enclosure isolates from cabinet vibration as well as higher sonic pressure waves within the enclosure, increases available cabinet volume slightly, and provides more flexibility for active or upgraded/tweaked passive crossover designs. I am just guessing (speculating, if you like more syllables) that the added cost and hassle for most consumers made (make) it a no-go in the marketplace.
Vivid audio have just introduced this option though.
 

DonH56

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Vivid audio have just introduced this option though.

That's cool. My old Maggies had an external box, and I have read reviews of speakers in the past year or three that had external crossover boxes, just do not recall which ones. I've no dog in this hunt, too lazy to revert to active crossovers again even though I have all the pieces around. I do dislike the false impression provided by speaker manufacturers to many less-knowledgeable audiophiles that simply removing the jumpers eliminates the internal crossovers from the signal path. Then throw "passive" bi-amping into the mix and it is clear Marketing has again "triumphed" over Engineering.

For that matter, over and over again, we have to explain to users why bi-amping with two 100 W amplifiers (with or without an active crossover) is not the same as using a single 200 W amplifier, power doesn't automagically double when you bi-amp... I tend to agree that passive bi-amping in AVRs is/was mostly a Marketing ploy to sell more AVRs with more channels than many users need.
 
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watchnerd

watchnerd

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Will be interested to see what support you get from Devialet if you want to do more than a simple high pass low pass crossover the configurator supports. I'm sure they have full blown convolution capability built in, but I'm not sure they will expose it to end users, but I hope they do.

The new 'Infinity Core OS' (likely just a version of Linux) board and OS upgrade is the likely candidate.
 

Soniclife

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The new 'Infinity Core OS' (likely just a version of Linux) board and OS upgrade is the likely candidate.
I hope your right, but I am expecting this to be music streaming focused, not DSP, but they have a history of doing things no one predicted so I hope something I really want turns up.

Did you order a 440 pro or 400, the non-pro won't get the new OS board to the best of my knowledge.
 
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