Dan D’Agostino on measurements

[reg19]

I know that ASR members typically lean towards ‘better measurements = better sounding always’ viewpoint, but I wonder if anyone has comments on this video:


Dan D’Agostino on measurements

 

[tuga]

Better (more accurate) sound doesn't suit the taste of all audiophile listeners, which is why some people prefer vinyl over digital, or valves over transistors, or lower-fi speakers.
Some types of distortion sound nice to some people (that's is why they are called euphonic).

 

[BDWoody]

I know that ASR members typically lean towards ‘better measurements = better sounding always’ viewpoint, but I wonder if anyone has comments on this video:


Dan D’Agostino on measurements

My comment would be predictable...

I'd like to see if he gets goosebumps in a double blind test.

I'm not saying he wouldn't, I'm saying I'd personally need to see that before I put any more credence in his story.

 

[SIY]

Better (more accurate) sound doesn't suit the taste of all audiophile listeners, which is why some people prefer vinyl over digital, or valves over transistors, or lower-fi speakers.
Some types of distortion sound nice to some people which is why they are called euphonic.

Dan's amps are unlikely to be audibly flawed. But their main point is the physical design, which is aimed for his ultra-premium market.

I personally think they're beautiful- my wife thinks they're hideous.

 

[tuga]

Dan's amps are unlikely to be audibly flawed.

What about slightly coloured or euphonic? (contentious, I know)
This set of HD measurements isn't particularly exaustive but the 2nd at 10kHz is only just over 60dB below full scale:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dan-dagostino-momentum-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

I personally think they're beautiful- my wife thinks they're hideous.

I'll side with your wife on this one.

I've listened to Momentum monos once at a show in a crowded room, driving a pair of Magico Q5. Not the best of conditions but the sound of the system did impress favourably.

 

[Matias]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...an-dagostino-interview-on-measurements.10698/

 

[SIY]

What about slightly coloured or euphonic?

The output impedance isn't super low, so there could be some small frequency response errors with speakers having large impedance swings. I wouldn't call that "euphonic" since it will be different speaker to speaker. Possibly barely discernable in a rapid-switched level-matched test, but not particularly significant in actual use.

The surprising thing is the relatively high crossover distortion- there's no excuse for that in a modern amplifier. That said, it's not likely to be anywhere near an audible level. I'd be annoyed at paying huge $$$ for something with that design flaw, but I'm not Dan's target market.

 

[Murrayp]

I purchased a pair of Momentums on sale or return, based on hearing them at shows and reputation. I immediately found them too warm for my tastes and lacking in tight control in the bass (piano sounded different to me, and they didn't do certain low frequency effects on familiar tracks) when compared to more familiar ss amps (Devialet). I sent them back, to the horror of the supplier. I could see how some would prefer the sound - sort of on the way to a valve sound. Later I heard them at a Melbourne hi fi show in a top end set up with Wilson speakers, playing some familiar Simon and Garfunkel. Again I personally thought it a rather beautiful, almost natural, but warm, sound. A rather colourful character next to me was clearly very agitated by the presentation, in fact so offended by the accuracy of the sound relative to the huge cost that he voiced his opinions at the end, rather loudly, along the lines of "That sound's not right! Cymbals don't sound like that!" I personally agreed, but I think most in the large crowd liked the sound. So I guess you can't please everyone voicing electronics to suit taste.

Personally my taste leans more to super low distortion amplifiers - the Neurochrome or Halcro models for instance. Interestingly two of my audio friends who came from valve and somewhat warm sounding SS amps also migrated to Neurochrome amps - this has generally happened through rather ear-opening A/B tests over some years now..... On the other hand we tend to swap in other amps just for a bit of variety in sound now and then - but we always seem to fall back to lowest distortion after a couple of weeks....

 

[SIY]

I purchased a pair of Momentums on sale or return, based on hearing them at shows and reputation. I immediately found them too warm for my tastes and lacking in tight control in the bass (piano sounded different to me, and they didn't do certain low frequency effects on familiar tracks) when compared to more familiar ss amps (Devialet). I sent them back, to the horror of the supplier. I could see how some would prefer the sound - sort of on the way to a valve sound. Later I heard them at a Melbourne hi fi show in a top end set up with Wilson speakers, playing some familiar Simon and Garfunkel. Again I personally thought it a rather beautiful, almost natural, but warm, sound. A rather colourful character next to me was clearly very agitated by the presentation, in fact so offended by the accuracy of the sound relative to the huge cost that he voiced his opinions at the end, rather loudly, along the lines of "That sound's not right! Cymbals don't sound like that!" I personally agreed, but I think most in the large crowd liked the sound. So I guess you can't please everyone voicing electronics to suit taste.

Personally my taste leans more to super low distortion amplifiers - the Neurochrome or Halcro models for instance. Interestingly two of my audio friends who came from valve and somewhat warm sounding SS amps also migrated to Neurochrome amps - this has generally happened through rather ear-opening A/B tests over some years now..... On the other hand we tend to swap in other amps just for a bit of variety in sound now and then - but we always seem to fall back to lowest distortion after a couple of weeks....

Presumably, none of the "evaluation" here was done ears-only.

I'm amused at the attribution of "Cymbals don't sound like that!" to the electronics rather than the speakers- or the imagination.

 

[Matias]

Since then I have compiled the amplifier SINAD list below. Interesting how even the best Krell were not competitive to modern class D (and AHB2) amplifiers. So with Dan D'Agostino solo company he must have thought "if you can't compete on this front, just let go". Now his current amps are on the bottom of the list....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZlTOYxmPs938gqHjtDABkWS-MApu7uJjzIGnJ2Elm6Y/edit?usp=sharing

 

[anmpr1]

I know that ASR members typically lean towards ‘better measurements = better sounding always’ viewpoint

When it comes to black box electronics (amps and even DACs) I don't think most ASR members think that at all. In fact, I suspect that most readers here would agree that once you get to below a certain level of distortion, it's sonically meaningless.

For most SS amplifiers (those that aren't really badly broken) it's idiotic to speak of their 'sound' apart from the loudspeaker it is connected to. It is not the amplifier that sounds this way and that, it is how it possibly interacts with a given speaker load. When Dan made his first Krells you needed that kind of muscle if you were running one ohm impedance Apogees. For a less electrically demanding speaker it was overkill.

Dan (and others like him) have to tout the 'amps have magic in them' line. It's how they pay the bills. Does he believe it? Deep down inside? Who knows? Can he prove it with levels matched and brands hidden? We know the answer to that, already.

 

[Murrayp]

Well I try to contribute my views as personal. Of course it was done ears only. At home it was ears only A/B over a couple of weeks. It's an odd hobby - in the end we listen rather than measure. Yes fair enough the speakers, room and crowd affect the sound. But I thought I heard , but very likely imagined, a familiar sound from the system.

Perhaps I could summarise my post simply as personally I've listened critically to Momentums vs other amps and found them warm and not so well controlled. This, as it happens, seems to align with then being voiced rather than designed for lowest distortion. I guess not too many people buy an amplifier from the specifications..

It's tricky on this site to voice a personal view. If we are to consider measurements only - fair enough - this personal view correlates with a not so good measuring amplifier not being to my taste. Unless we have some expressing their views how are we to conclude that the best measuring amplifier is the best sounding? Admittedly we need a sample of more than just me, but at least I've listened to the amplifiers.

 

[sergeauckland]

Well I try to contribute my views as personal. Of course it was done ears only. At home it was ears only A/B over a couple of weeks. It's an odd hobby - in the end we listen rather than measure. Yes fair enough the speakers, room and crowd affect the sound. But I thought I heard , but very likely imagined, a familiar sound from the system.

Perhaps I could summarise my post simply as personally I've listened critically to Momentums vs other amps and found them warm and not so well controlled. This, as it happens, seems to align with then being voiced rather than designed for lowest distortion. I guess not too many people buy an amplifier from the specifications..

It's tricky on this site to voice a personal view. If we are to consider measurements only - fair enough - this personal view correlates with a not so good measuring amplifier not being to my taste. Unless we have some expressing their views how are we to conclude that the best measuring amplifier is the best sounding? Admittedly we need a sample of more than just me, but at least I've listened to the amplifiers.

I don't think it's a problem voicing a personal view on this site. it's much more a problem voicing an uncontrolled, sighted opinion. Had you done your evaluation blind, level-matched, against other amplifiers, then perhaps the reactions would be different.
I accept that not many people evaluate equipment under any sort of controlled conditions, and if they did, I don't suppose there would be many sales and manufacturers would give up.

S.

 

[Murrayp]

Anmpr1 says "Dan (and others like him) have to tout the 'amps have magic in them' line. It's how they pay the bills. Does he believe it? Deep down inside? Who knows? Can he prove it with levels matched and brands hidden? We know the answer to that, already "

Maybe, but maybe not too. Maybe there is quite enough distortion to colour the sound so that indeed we can tell one from another blind and level matched? The sound one prefers may not be the lowest distortion - who knows? I doubt Dan sells only on magic - but on preferences - style and sound. I guess I'd be careful of assuming "we know the answer to that already....".

 

[Murrayp]

I don't think it's a problem voicing a personal view on this site. it's much more a problem voicing an uncontrolled, sighted opinion. Had you done your evaluation blind, level-matched, against other amplifiers, then perhaps the reactions would be different.
I accept that not many people evaluate equipment under any sort of controlled conditions, and if they did, I don't suppose there would be many sales and manufacturers would give up.

S.

Fair enough. Blind and level matched (within say 0.1dB) pretty much requires special equipment. So few I expect do this. But nevertheless when evaluating a new purchase I guess most do their best to avoid bias. Perhaps we kid ourselves. In my case I wanted to like the amps in comparison to my then reference Devialet - but I didn't. I'd have thought I was biased the other way. Who knows - saved me a lot of money anyway.

There will be a distortion level where things are obvious.. Perhaps it is more obvious for certain types of distortion than others. Anyone who has heard ring modulated piano (multiplication with sum and difference products) is likely to hear the bell like effect on piano reproduced by some valve amplifiers. Once heard it is like wow and flutter - our ears are very sensitive to it - especially on piano - well mine are....

 

[tuga]

The output impedance isn't super low, so there could be some small frequency response errors with speakers having large impedance swings. I wouldn't call that "euphonic" since it will be different speaker to speaker. Possibly barely discernable in a rapid-switched level-matched test, but not particularly significant in actual use.

The surprising thing is the relatively high crossover distortion- there's no excuse for that in a modern amplifier. That said, it's not likely to be anywhere near an audible level. I'd be annoyed at paying huge $$$ for something with that design flaw, but I'm not Dan's target market.

Would you object to the poor filtration capabilities of the PSU?

 

[BDWoody]

Blind and level matched (within say 0.1dB) pretty much requires special equipment.

A multimeter isn't really specialized. Seems like more of a convenient excuse.

If one wants to do it, it isn't that hard.

 

[SIY]

Would you object to the poor filtration capabilities of the PSU?

My concerns begin and end with what’s at the output.

 

[richard12511]

I know that ASR members typically lean towards ‘better measurements = better sounding always’ viewpoint, but I wonder if anyone has comments on this video:


Dan D’Agostino on measurements

He knows he's not capable of designing an amplifier that's measurably better than a Benchmark, so the only way he can sell you his amplifier that cost 100 times as much is if he can convince you that measurements don't tell the whole story.

 

[SIY]

Well I try to contribute my views as personal. Of course it was done ears only. At home it was ears only A/B over a couple of weeks. It's an odd hobby - in the end we listen rather than measure. Yes fair enough the speakers, room and crowd affect the sound. But I thought I heard , but very likely imagined, a familiar sound from the system.

Perhaps I could summarise my post simply as personally I've listened critically to Momentums vs other amps and found them warm and not so well controlled. This, as it happens, seems to align with then being voiced rather than designed for lowest distortion. I guess not too many people buy an amplifier from the specifications...

So it was not done ears-only.