Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[Skylarlove1999]

I earned that. I apologize for my treatment of Amir and your ASR community. I was wrong. I do have many relationships which tends to be why I get so passionate when I see a brand I love being denigrated so harshly but my issue should be with Denon not Amir. I love Kid Rock.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

Are we still going to waste pages with Skylarlove1999 and replying to him? I just skipped through 5 pages because i see his posts. I want to read something constructive. Please, just ignore. He just wants to fight no matter the argument. No reasoning.

I apologize for my infantile outburst . It has stopped and should never have started. Sorry for wasting your time.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Your friend needs better calibration or/and better RoomEq software, or even speaker positioning.

Possibly.
We will definitely re-test once Dirac adds multichannel support to the PC processor.
Doesn't change the fact that rear channel activity is mediocre at best in most movies.

 

[polmuaddib]

Hmm...
To be perfectly honest? I have yet to be impressed by surround sound.
My friend built a nice surround system using speakers from Focal's Aria line for all channels. While the speakers sound fantastic in a 2.0 setting, in movies, the rears are barely active. Yeah sure you get the odd bullet impact or the mandatory helicopter flying above your head but that's pretty much it. 90% of the movie it's just the center speaker blaring at you. "Gimmicky" is precisely the term I would use for most movies.

As far as music is concerned, I feel that imaging suffers a lot with surround sound. Stuff just sounds "all over the place", fuzzy, unfocused, indeterminate.

Maybe the movies/mixes were badly done, I don't know. It's difficult to find surround music in the first place, indicating to me that if we want the surround experience to be better, we need to start with high quality source material. At no point did I have the feeling that his Pioneer AVR (a device that would probably get another headless Panther) was the limiting factor.

That being said: I do love AVRs for the convenience and functions they provide and I wholeheartedly agree with @Promit that one device should be able to deliver both: great surround and stereo performance.

I understand your view completely and that is exactly my point. You haven't had a good surround sound experience. Something was probably not done right at your friend's setup or the source material wasn't very good or his Pioneer IS the limiting factor.
As for the movies, i can not agree with you. In movies, surround sound is another level of appreciation along the plot, picture, acting... when done right, of course. For example, "A Quiet Place" is a movie with superb Dolby Atmos mix IMO. My wife and I really enjoyed the movie and were fully immersed. When we heard creatures thumping our ceiling I felt relief for all the effort of creating faux ceiling, putting in ceiling speakers and all. I know, you will say that creature thumping in the ceiling is a gimmick but it is ok to have a little gimmick here and there. But the surround mix for that movie is great and adds to the story. The movie just isn't that interesting without it. My friend watched it in stereo, didn't like it and was surprised I recommended that movie to him.
Not only horror, actrion, scifi movies benefit from surround sound. Surround sound isn't all about bullets wizzing, choppers, rockets flying overhead, but it needs to be a carerfull mix done with some purpose. Otherwise, you get a gimmick, you are right, and maybe more then half the movies with 5.1 mix is just nothing special.
To enjoy surround sound in movies or music, you have to invest a lot for it to work. I don't mean financially just. You always tweak it here and there. But when it works right with the good source, you are rewarded.
To return to the point of the post, we need quality of stereo gear for all of our channels and that is the purpose of this site. To spread the word, boycot bad gear and maybe in the future influence the manufacturer to make a great AVR, AV PRE PRO that doesn't cost Trinnov dollars (who know if even Trinnov measures great).
Because AVRs DO sound bad and the only logical explanation for that are bad measurements ( low SINAD). If the SINAD is low, the AVR blows.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

@Skylarlove1999 kudos to you as being the most triumphant troll I’ve ever encountered!

As a self declared friend of the Sound United CEO, you are a quasi representative of Denon. You have single handedly destroyed a good portion of the Denon brand goodwill (e.g. balance sheet item) with your baseless and unhinged claims. Denon marketing is going to go into serious damage control after the mess you have created. It is time to shut up and let Denon corporate address the obvious objective problems with the x4700h.

I‘m saying this as a 35 year, dedicated Denon consumer and loyalist. Here‘s my first Denon to prove it:

Once again I apologize. Sorry for creating so much drama. Hard to see a brand you love denigrated so profusely. Not an excuse just raw emotion.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

I understand your view completely and that is exactly my point. You haven't had a good surround sound experience. Something was probably not done right at your friend's setup or the source material wasn't very good or his Pioneer IS the limiting factor.
As for the movies, i can not agree with you. In movies, surround sound is another level of appreciation along the plot, picture, acting... when done right, of course. For example, "A Quiet Place" is a movie with superb Dolby Atmos mix IMO. My wife and I really enjoyed the movie and were fully immersed. When we heard creatures thumping our ceiling I felt relief for all the effort of creating faux ceiling, putting in ceiling speakers and all. I know, you will say that creature thumping in the ceiling is a gimmick but it is ok to have a little gimmick here and there. But the surround mix for that movie is great and adds to the story. The movie just isn't that interesting without it. My friend watched it in stereo, didn't like it and was surprised I recommended that movie to him.
Not only horror, actrion, scifi movies benefit from surround sound. Surround sound isn't all about bullets wizzing, choppers, rockets flying overhead, but it needs to be a carerfull mix done with some purpose. Otherwise, you get a gimmick, you are right, and maybe more then half the movies with 5.1 mix is just nothing special.
To enjoy surround sound in movies or music, you have to invest a lot for it to work. I don't mean financially just. You always tweak it here and there. But when it works right with the good source, you are rewarded.
To return to the point of the post, we need quality of stereo gear for all of our channels and that is the purpose of this site. To spread the word, boycot bad gear and maybe in the future influence the manufacturer to make a great AVR, AV PRE PRO that doesn't cost Trinnov dollars (who know if even Trinnov measures great).
Because AVRs DO sound bad and the only logical explanation for that are bad measurements ( low SINAD). If the SINAD is low, the AVR blows.

13 Hours is a great mix as well if your setup is calibrated properly.

 

[Vindermere]

You aren't wrong. The brand being just a faceplate anymore is a valid concern. It has brought price down at the expense of quality. Not ideal . But more people can afford these items than at anytime in the industry but most AVR are no longer reliable for 2 channel music reproduction . Once again I apologize for having caused so much drama here. I was upset to see my beloved Denon being raked over the coals. Not an excuse for my behavior just being honest. I can understand people not wanting to buy one product for home theater and another for music reproduction. I hope a firmware update can indeed address these issues.

The issue is not about software but hardware implantation

 

[rccarguy]

Talking of which censorship and removal of discussion on asr bench tests on avforums


Guess they don't want to hurt sponsorship from brands give out 5 star awards for poor quality badly engineer audio gear

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Because AVRs DO sound bad and the only logical explanation for that are bad measurements ( low SINAD). If the SINAD is low, the AVR blows.

While I agree on your other points, let me be candid for a moment: this seems a needlessly hyperbolic statement.
I do not believe you would be able to pick out a device with a SINAD of 85 among devices with SINADs of 120+.

Why do I say that:
Lets assume you have REALLY awesome speakers with a THD of -60dB at all frequencies (0.1% THD, completely unrealistic but good speakers manage that in higher freqs) and lets assume the worst case scenario: a direct addition of the distortions.

85dB SINAD device typical AVR performance
-85dB + (-60dB) = -59.986dB

12db SINAD device
-120dB + (-60dB) = -59.999dB

That's a whopping -0.013dB better SINAD. Good luck in hearing that in a blind test.

Now you also know the reason, why our Senpai often writes words to the effect: "it is most likely not an audible issue".

AVRs have other shortcomings, most notably:
- potentially low damping factor
- a lack of power, esp when a lot of channels are driven.
- crappy DSP processing done to the signal unless people use "pure direct" etc

E.g.:
My lil' Yammy has 70 Wpc 2 channels driven 20-20KHz. If split those 140 watts across 5 speakers that would be a whopping 28W.
Even if a Sub does the heavy lifting in terms of LFE effects, that will be the real reason of anemic or even distorted sound right there, when trying to push movie reference levels.

Also, as soon as I activate any of the DSP, the signal quality goes straight into the gutter.
Even I can hear that clearly and I am by no means a golden eared audiophile. :X

Please do not confuse issues in engineering with audible performance degradation. While these issues should definitely be resolved by the manufacturers, it's unlikely that you will notice them during real world operation. Most certainly not while being immersed and distracted by the actual musical content.
Don't know about you but when I listen to music I listen to harmonic tonality, instrument composition, dynamics, expression, rhythm .... but not for potentially audible distortion of my AVR.

 

[simbloke]

@amirm : rub, rub, rub, .... tell me when it's enough

Thanks for making me actually laugh out loud. (Typo)

 

[raistlin65]

My bigger concern is that too many seemingly competing companies belong to the same holding, reducing real competition much more than one thinks.

I would expect within the next 10 years, we'll see Chinese companies, or at least Chinese design and manufactured components, competing in the audio video receiver market.

They've already taken over the DAP and other portable audio source gear market. The best value on high measuring DACs is coming from China. They are beginning to dominate the IEM market. They are a major competitor in the mid-fi to hi-fi headphone market.

And then who is actually designing Monoprice's processors and amps? My bet is that it's all Chinese based. Consider Emotiva's original Airmotiv which were essentially a rebranded clone of a Chinese speaker (how much of Emotiva's electronics are actually their own design?). Since then, more and more speaker design and manufacturing out of China.

Just seems likely to me that it is only a matter of time before that huge industry moves into the AVR market because of all the audio engineering expertise and talent that has been building there over the last 15 years.

 

[carlob]

I would expect within the next 10 years, we'll see Chinese companies, or at least Chinese design and manufactured components, competing in the audio video receiver market.

They've already taken over the DAP and other portable audio source gear market. The best value on high measuring DACs is coming from China. They are beginning to dominate the IEM market. They are a major competitor in the mid-fi to hi-fi headphone market.

And then who is actually designing Monoprice's processors and amps? My bet is that it's all Chinese based. Consider Emotiva's original Airmotiv which were essentially a rebranded clone of a Chinese speaker (how much of Emotiva's electronics are actually their own design?). Since then, more and more speaker design and manufacturing out China.

Just seems likely to me that it is only a matter of time before that huge industry moves into the AVR market because of all the audio engineering expertise and talent that has been building there over the last 15 years.

Agree. Also they can differentiate their products from the mass market at least with excellent specs and measurements at a lower cost, that is what they are doing with dacs. See Topping offering to name just one. Too bad that the "western" brands don't understand that, yes they buy chinese parts, outsource manufacturing or setup assembly plants in Asia with the aim to reduce payroll and manufacturing costs but the "western" engineering behind these products is terrible, clearly not a priority, it's a management choice because I cannot think we haven't got good engineers anymore. Back in time in China and Asia they probably had no design capabilities but now I'd say that they have catch up (in a first stage they just copied and improved, not only in audio, probably stolen or reverse engineered some intellectual property, see also in telecom), now they have excellent engineers in China, have all the capabilities, money to invest and are are more than able to design excellent products.

 

[carlob]

Also we now have a market in which companies to substain their business model need you to upgrade every year pushing new useless features like 8k, we don't yet have widespread 4k, or absurd multichannel audio systems. Now 13 channels in a future who knows 25 channels, 100 channels, you will need to drill so many holes in your living that will resemble an emmenthal wheel of cheese. Most of the world lives in 70sq meters. This is just crazy. The industry needs a sanity check, back to sound engineering practices and features that are actually useful for normal people.

 

[raistlin65]

Agree. Also they can differentiate their products from the mass market at least with excellent specs and measurements at a lower cost, that is what they are doing with dacs. See Topping offering to name just one. Too bad that the "western" brands don't understand that, yes they buy chinese parts, outsource manufacturing or setup assembly plants in Asia with the aim to reduce payroll and manufacturing costs but the "western" engineering behind these products is terrible, clearly not a priority, it's a management choice because I cannot think we haven't got good engineers anymore. Back in time in China and Asia they probably had no design capabilities but now I'd say that they have catch up (in a first stage they just copied and improved, not only in audio, probably stolen or reverse engineered some intellectual property, see also in telecom), now they have excellent engineers in China, have all the capabilities, money to invest and are are more than able to design excellent products.

I disagree, in that I think we have the engineers. I just think the manufacturers are having them design mediocre products.

Unfortunately, the western companies are being led by those more invested in marketing and brand image development as the main path to success, and not the design value of their products. So those people are all for adding the newest, latest feature to an AVR, because they can sell that as an upgrade. But they won't care much about the audio performance as long as it's acceptable to most consumers, whom they see as dumb about audio performance.

An example of this beyond DAC and amp performance is that the X4700H is a $1600 AVR that doesn't support any bluetooth codecs beyond SBC. How much would it have cost them to license apt-x? Sony might have made them a good deal on LDAC so that they can sell more LDAC licensing for headphones, and would help to sell their headphones.

So what Amir is doing here is important, because it may encourage manufacturers to put more value on AVR sonic performance.

 

[carlob]

I disagree, in that I think we have the engineers. I just think the manufacturers are having them design mediocre products.

Sure, that was my point: "it's a management choice because I cannot think we haven't got good engineers anymore". We have plenty of them, it's just that good engineering is not a management priority anymore. Even because, differently than in the past, nobody takes the time to measure things anymore. When I started with this "hobby" there were audio magazines all over reviewing stuff with pages and pages of measures. Only here we had no less than five different audio magazines with internal labs measuring the shit out of every piece of hardware. Where are they now? I think Stereophile is the last well known printed audio magazine in the world with actual measures, that's why Amir work here is important I agree 100%.

 

[Spocko]

This is a thoughtful and honorable answer. Trashing a product and shaming the company rarely achieves your desired result of making a better product for consumers. Why aren't you designing and making these better products if you want to help the audio industry instead of just pointing the finger at the manufacturer?

Actually, I know you're new, but if you read many of the review threads, guess what? The smaller manufacturers are incredibly responsive and have reached out directly to ASR to investigate the problem! Case in point: Emotiva $5,000 RMC-1 processor received a headless panther review https://bit.ly/3ehHpuo and of course Emotiva fan base lashed out, but guess what? The manufacturer was very concerned and Lonnie, the Emotiva rep, directly reached out to ASR to engage in productive conversation to explain/fix the issue, and I'll repost what Lonnie said: (my emphasis added) https://bit.ly/2YVMIcb

A big thank you Amir for retesting the RMC-1.​

I also want to thank you for bringing to our attention something we missed in our standard battery of test. It was a pleasure speaking with you and thank you again. We do strive to provide the best product possible for our customers but we are only human and do miss things, so your review was very helpful.​

My best regards,​

Lonnie​

The first ASR member responses after this statement? From AudioBliss:

What a time for AV enthusiasts. The power of forums is real! It's great to see that Emotiva took the issue seriously and fixed it so fast. Even though there is more to be fixed in the software in terms of features it does give great confidence in a manufacturer who has an online presence. I wish all AV manufacturers did that. Even though I don't own this product it does give me hope that it's actually possible to get faster feedback loops to manufacturers in the industry where action is taken.​

​

Emotiva pretty much won a whole bunch of fans that day, regardless of how badly the measurements were initially; Lonnie admitted that testing missed a few items, but also explained the reasons why some subpar measurements were simply unavoidable due to DSP noise processing at lower resolutions when active.

Do you see now, the importance of ASR? The manufacturer joined this channel with an open mind, with the possibility that maybe just maybe, they did miss something and Amir got it right. Emotiva won much respect that day.

 

[raistlin65]

Sure, that was my point: "it's a management choice because I cannot think we haven't got good engineers anymore". We have plenty of them, it's just that good engineering is not a management priority anymore. Even because, differently than in the past, nobody takes the time to measure things anymore. When I started with this "hobby" there were audio magazines all over reviewing stuff with pages and pages of measures. Only here we had no less than five different audio magazines with internal labs measuring the shit out of every piece of hardware. Where are they now? I think Stereophile is the last well known printed audio magazine in the world with actual measures, that's why Amir work here is important I agree 100%.

You are right. I was reading quickly on a phone and missed you said that. My bad.

 

[Spocko]

I would expect within the next 10 years, we'll see Chinese companies, or at least Chinese design and manufactured components, competing in the audio video receiver market.

They've already taken over the DAP and other portable audio source gear market. The best value on high measuring DACs is coming from China. They are beginning to dominate the IEM market. They are a major competitor in the mid-fi to hi-fi headphone market.

And then who is actually designing Monoprice's processors and amps? My bet is that it's all Chinese based. Consider Emotiva's original Airmotiv which were essentially a rebranded clone of a Chinese speaker (how much of Emotiva's electronics are actually their own design?). Since then, more and more speaker design and manufacturing out of China.

Just seems likely to me that it is only a matter of time before that huge industry moves into the AVR market because of all the audio engineering expertise and talent that has been building there over the last 15 years.

This has been happening with TVs since Vizio literally started this business model way back when. Specifically, Vizio uses the ODM (Original Design Manufacturing) model whereby rather than giving precise specifications like Apple or Sony for the Chinese factory to produce to spec (OEM model), Vizio instead provides general requirements: we want the 2021 TVs to have 4K, Dolby Vision, how about 800 dimming zones, can you do that yet? What else in your list of goodies can we throw in there? And how much is all this going to cost me if I order 10,000 units? And can you make the TV look pretty? Foxconn is one such ODM (they are also the OEM for Apple) and partial owner of Vizio.

AVRs and processors are perfectly suited for the ODM model, because they are literally just a checklist of DSP features and components that ODMs are built for: Dolby, DTX, Dirac, Auro 3D and throw in a name-brand dual DAC chip from AKM and call it a day.

 

[carlob]

Actually, I know you're new, but if you read many of the review threads, guess what? The smaller manufacturers are incredibly responsive and have reached out directly to ASR to investigate the problem! Case in point: Emotiva $5,000 RMC-1 processor received a headless panther review https://bit.ly/3ehHpuo and of course Emotiva fan base lashed out, but guess what? The manufacturer was very concerned and Lonnie, the Emotiva rep, directly reached out to ASR to engage in productive conversation to explain/fix the issue, and I'll repost what Lonnie said: (my emphasis added) https://bit.ly/2YVMIcb

A big thank you Amir for retesting the RMC-1.​

I also want to thank you for bringing to our attention something we missed in our standard battery of test. It was a pleasure speaking with you and thank you again. We do strive to provide the best product possible for our customers but we are only human and do miss things, so your review was very helpful.​

My best regards,​

Lonnie​

The first ASR member responses after this statement? From AudioBliss:

What a time for AV enthusiasts. The power of forums is real! It's great to see that Emotiva took the issue seriously and fixed it so fast. Even though there is more to be fixed in the software in terms of features it does give great confidence in a manufacturer who has an online presence. I wish all AV manufacturers did that. Even though I don't own this product it does give me hope that it's actually possible to get faster feedback loops to manufacturers in the industry where action is taken.​

​

Emotiva pretty much won a whole bunch of fans that day, regardless of how badly the measurements were initially; Lonnie admitted that testing missed a few items, but also explained the reasons why some subpar measurements were simply unavoidable due to DSP noise processing at lower resolutions when active.

Do you see now, the importance of ASR? The manufacturer joined this channel with an open mind, with the possibility that maybe just maybe, they did miss something and Amir got it right. Emotiva won much respect that day.

Now to be real this is going to happen only with small manufacturers. Big corporations don't work that way and don't have that level of flexibility. I know how big corporations work. To have one engineer out of the hundreds they have in a group to discuss the tech details of a product review in public on a forum will need so many levels of internal steps and authorizations that's just unthinkable. I would be pretty surprised otherways but that's just not going to happen. Maybe in private. Maybe in a official statement on their site with the wording being carefully checked by lawyers, marketing etc.

But it would be enough for me if they read, go back to work and silently improve their stuff, that's what I think we all hope.

 

[carlob]

You are right. I was reading quickly on a phone and missed you said that. My bad.

np, I guessed that