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Does the same brand, model of amplifier, speakers measure the same?

DanielT

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If you take X number of the same amplifier and speakers (brand model) and measure them. Given that there is nothing wrong with the amplifiers / speakers, how much do they measure the same then? New amplifiers / speakers namely.

I can guess that it differs depending on the quality of the construction, but is it possible to say anything in general? Or for that matter, is there a brand, model to look out for because it varies a lot?

It may not be a practical problem, what do I know. I'm most curious.:)
 

JayGilb

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I suppose that depends on manufacturing techniques. Robotic/mechanical assembly of equipment would eliminate a lot of variance due to tight tolerances.

Component tolerances are 1-10% on resistors, capacitors are 15-20% (higher on electrolytic), discrete semiconductors will vary more than integrated devices.

I'm not sure we could say anything in general, due to differences between manufacturers.
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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Yes that, Component tolerances.Did not think about that.:)

Wondering if and which manufacturers test their products before they are sent out to the store. Test each manufactured unit or x% of manufactured to see if they live up to the specifications?
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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It may not be a practical problem, what do I know. I'm most curious.:)

I change my mind. It is important. If I buy something, I want it to live up to and perform according to the stated specifications. By the way, not only applies to Hifi products but as well as everything as well as everything else I buy.

If the stated frequency response according to the manufacturer is 20-20kHz +/- 0.5 dB, then of course I expect it to be so..
(in the way it is measured)
 

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sergeauckland

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Firstly, any decent design, even going back to the 1950s, will meet its specification with components all at the 'wrong' end of their tolerances, as the design will take this into account.
Modern manufacturing, i.e. anything this century, possibly earlier, have components that although may have, say, 5% tolerance of nominal, if from the same batch, will be far closer to each other, typically 1% or better. Consequently, two amplifiers off the same production line with close serial numbers will be pretty much identical. Two amplifiers with distant serial numbers may show differences, but both must still be comfortably within their specification.

As to manufacturer testing, I expect 100% testing of completed PCBs, as this can all be done automatically, so quick and inexpensive. As for testing of completed items, I very much doubt today whether manufacturers routinely do this, possibly for their TOTL products only. How much testing and whether at component, board or finished goods levels depends on the consequences and cost of faults. Scrapping a very expensive PCB could result in testing critical components before board assembly, or if the PCB is cheap, just testing the PCB and scrapping the failures. Similarly, something expensive to rework when finished will get a lot more testing at intermediate stages.

When I first started work, in 1971, manufacturers still occasionally had Goods-In inspection of individual components, but by then, components could generally be relied on to be OK except for military or medical work where 100% Goods-In inspection was still the norm.

With increased reliability of components and automated assembly methods there is reduced need for testing, so manufacturers' Cost Accountants and Production Engineers will work out the optimum amount of testing and where, for an acceptably low failure rate and warranty (and reputational) costs.

S
 

ahofer

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“I was able to listen to serial number 456 of the Golden Lobes Loudspeaker. I found a heightened sense of pace and tonality, with perhaps a hair less slam. In this model we recommend serial numbers under 300, which sell for only $50k more.”
 

DVDdoug

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Most specs are "worst case" so it will say something like less than 1% distortion.

Wondering if and which manufacturers test their products before they are sent out to the store. Test each manufactured unit or x% of manufactured to see if they live up to the specifications?
That's a good question... I'd guess most "consumer manufacturers" don't check all of the specs on every unit.

I've worked in electronics my whole life but I've never worked in audio or other consumer electronics. Where I work now (and most of the places I've worked) we actually fully-test everything twice! These are semi-automated tests. Everything has a special computerized test-program and one or more special test fixtures and often some "standard" test equipment like a multimeter or oscilloscope. But everything is plugged-in one-at-a-time and some human interaction is required during the testing.

We test it (and do any necessary calibration), then it goes into burn-in (currently 120 degrees F for 2-days), then it's tested again. The purpose of the burn-in is to weed-out any early failures and it's rare to have a failure after burn-in. (At our company the units are powered-on but not being actively tested during burn-in.)
 

JayGilb

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Yes that, Component tolerances.Did not think about that.:)

Wondering if and which manufacturers test their products before they are sent out to the store. Test each manufactured unit or x% of manufactured to see if they live up to the specifications?
Depends on their production volume and unit cost. I wouldn't expect a manufacturer of high-volume consumer grade audio products to perform a long term burn in of completed units, maybe margin testing of individual pcb units.

I've worked on design teams for $100 million, football field sized supercomputers where MTBF was written into the (usually government) contracts and everything from individual components to pcb boards were tested and burned in at high margin specs. These machines spent weeks in systems checkout in an effort to force out component failures before they were installed at the customer sites.
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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Speaking of deviations. My dream DIY project speakers are a pair of really big, (long, floor to ceiling) line speakers. :pBuilt with 3-4 ich drivers. Approximately 20-25 pcs in each speaker. Got a tip from a experienced DIY who said:

Measure Ohm on each element, they differ a bit, then you match the elements Ohm for each speakers. Buy some extra drivers
. It is very likely that some of them measuring too much wrong, possibly broken and believe me you will not be able to keep returning one of the elements (for example if you buy Peerless by Tymphany TC9FD18-08 which is so cheap) when you are hungry on building your speakers. Not to be mean, but if you are a beginner, it is also not a question of but when you destroy one of your driver. Slinter with the screwdriver, for example.


Picture, yummy ...
 

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bo_knows

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Yes that, Component tolerances.Did not think about that.:)

Wondering if and which manufacturers test their products before they are sent out to the store. Test each manufactured unit or x% of manufactured to see if they live up to the specifications?
I know KEF does it for their upper line of speakers (Reference, Blade, and Muon). They will provide the FR result with the speakers. I know Revel did the same for the Ultima line (not sure if they ever provided anything with the speakers, never owned one). Dynaudio also provides the results with their professional monitors. I'm sure there are many more manufacturers for speakers that do the same. Point is, yes there are manufacturers that do testing of the final products to meet the "reference" lab standard. I would assume most electronic components are tested as well as part of the process before they are shipped to the consumer.
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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I've worked in electronics my whole life but I've never worked in audio or other consumer electronics. Where I work now (and most of the places I've worked) we actually fully-test everything twice! These are semi-automated tests. Everything has a special computerized test-program and one or more special test fixtures and often some "standard" test equipment like a multimeter or oscilloscope. But everything is plugged-in one-at-a-time and some human interaction is required during the testing.

We test it (and do any necessary calibration), then it goes into burn-in (currently 120 degrees F for 2-days), then it's tested again. The purpose of the burn-in is to weed-out any early failures and it's rare to have a failure after burn-in. (At our company the units are powered-on but not being actively tested during burn-in.)

Sensible BUT there is a little difference if you make, for example, pacemakers. It is slightly more important that they work according to specifications than if an amplifier measures a bit bad. Annoying but not deadly (though sometimes I wonder when I read some posts on ASR, as if life is at stake if class D ampifier X is not measured with the right bandwidth). :)
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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I know KEF does it for their upper line of speakers (Reference, Blade, and Muon). They will provide the FR result with the speakers. I know Revel did the same for the Ultima line (not sure if they ever provided anything with the speakers, never owned one). Dynaudio also provides the results with their professional monitors. I'm sure there are many more manufacturers for speakers that do the same. Point is, yes there are manufacturers that do testing of the final products to meet the "reference" lab standard. I would assume most electronic components are tested as well as part of the process before they are shipped to the consumer.
The good old days. I opened up my vintage NAD 3020 amplifier. Would you look at that . It was checked before delivery.:)
IMG_20210606_110342_copy_1248x1248 (2).jpg
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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index.php


Is there a powerful fan in the case? It looks like it's blown half the components over - kind of like a forest after a storm. :p
Storm? I guess it was some hevy metal kid who drove the shit out of it before me. Hehe.
I have no idea why it looks like a storm has passed through it.:)

Believe it or not but it works. At my friend for recap now 44 pcs capacitors are replaced. Plus some other rubbish because it turned out to be DC shit that crawled out of it ..

So it is with old stuff.

Cool little racer. Have it in my little summer cottage.:)

Fan?Hardly even a heatsink.
(not mine in that picture)
 

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DanielT

DanielT

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I know KEF does it for their upper line of speakers (Reference, Blade, and Muon). They will provide the FR result with the speakers.
Yes. Correct. Here's a little interesting documentary I found. For these speakers in video, KEF tests them one by one and also videos each speaker. Measures each speaker in the production line.

 

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MakeMineVinyl

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Yes that, Component tolerances.Did not think about that.:)

Wondering if and which manufacturers test their products before they are sent out to the store. Test each manufactured unit or x% of manufactured to see if they live up to the specifications?
Regarding power amplifiers and processors, 100% tested, burned in and tested again. All resistors are 1%, and signal capacitors are typically Wima. I imagine that other reputable manufacturers are similar.
 
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