Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

[Purité Audio]

Do you have any idea why these two, that I would have guessed from measurements would produce the same in room profile differ?

When I measured both of them, speakers and microphone un touched, their measurements were extremely similar , they are up on my ‘blog’ but I suspect Mitch is perhaps more rigourous than me.
Also because both speakers are so have to make sure you are measuring as much as possible like for like.
Both are great though.
Keith

 

[Cosmik]

If you measure the sum of direct and reflected sound in-room, two anechoically equal speakers of different design will not measure the same in-room, wouldn’t you agree?

Not if "anechoically" means 3D Spin-o-rama. If they are equal in terms of dispersion at all angles then they will produce the same in-room curves in any particular room. But if they are 'equal' but one has different directivity from the other (still 'neutral' i.e. uniform dispersion) they will produce different in-room curves.

 

[andreasmaaan]

But the Kii THREE needs -5 dB attenuation from 3 kHz to 20 kHz, whereas the 8c's do not...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Why do you say the Kii "needs" 5dB of attenuation and the 8C doesn't?

 

[hvbias]

Too busy working and making money right now. I haven't had a day off since April.

Why don't you guys buy some and test them in your respective rooms? There are a lot of measurements of the 8Cs on the internet already.

I have a feeling one poster wants measurements so that he can say they're worse than speaker X made by Genelec. But I've ignored him, so I don't know for sure.

I was the one who asked for measurements, I have never heard a Genelec or know much about them. I'm only interested in active speakers that use DSP for the crossovers.

Thanks @Purité Audio I did find them on your site. If I was in the UK I would have traveled to hear them. I see Mitch has written a review for Computer Audiophile with in room measurements, I will have a read through that.

My interest in seeing in room measurements is how they handled bass and whether they could truly be "one stop shop" as I want some speakers for the living room that look good and don't need multiple subwoofers or room treatments. I'm pretty much only jazz and classical listener and absolute transparency is my goal.

 

[Purité Audio]

I believe they are, but then I would say that wouldn’t I!
I suppose the only slight stumbling block is you have multiple sources then you are still going to need a ‘pre=amp’ , if you are happy with just Roon, then they will be ‘roon-ready’ really soon.
D&D are working on an interface but these things always seem to take longer than you think, I use an RME ‘pro’ with mine and honestly they are superb , nothing else required.
Keith

 

[Soniclife]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Why do you say the Kii "needs" 5dB of attenuation and the 8C doesn't?

To hit his target slope, the K3 had too much top end without attenuating via it's inbuilt DSP.

 

[Purité Audio]

The Kiis have ‘baxendale’ filters as well as their boundary filters which adjust bass only.
Keith

 

[andreasmaaan]

To hit his target slope, the K3 had too much top end without attenuating via it's inbuilt DSP.

Ok, you mean in other words Kii did not target a flat on-axis (or listening window, whichever you prefer) response?

Whereas Dutch&Dutch did target a flat on-axis response?

If Kii didn't target a flat response, do we know why? (Links are fine if you have them, no need to get bogged down in explanation here yourself)

 

[Soniclife]

Ok, you mean in other words Kii did not target a flat on-axis (or listening window, whichever you prefer) response?

Whereas Dutch&Dutch did target a flat on-axis response?

If Kii didn't target a flat response, do we know why? (Links are fine if you have them, no need to get bogged down in explanation here yourself)

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/reviews/kii-three-loudspeaker-review-r735/

A -4 dB shelf at 3 kHz was all it took to achieve my preferred in-room measured frequency response of 20 Hz to -10 dB at 20 kHz.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/reviews/dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeaker-review-r739/

Kudos to D&D for engineering the first loudspeaker I have measured that requires no or minimal high frequency adjustment to sound neutral in my room.

Worth reading the full reviews for more context.

 

[andreasmaaan]

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/reviews/kii-three-loudspeaker-review-r735/

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/reviews/dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeaker-review-r739/

Worth reading the full reviews for more context.

Thanks. Actually I've read both those reviews and can't find any reference to the Kii having an attenuated HF response on-axis. I've only read material from them claiming a flat on-axis frequency response.

The only information I'm aware of about a downward sloping on-axis FR is in Stereophile's measurements.

 

[Soniclife]

can't find any reference to the Kii having an attenuated HF response on-axis

It's the other way around, the Kii needed to be attenuated to hit his in room target, the 8c did not. Both are flat on axis without the room.

 

[andreasmaaan]

It's the other way around, the Kii needed to be attenuated to hit his in room target, the 8c did not. Both are flat on axis without the room.

Sorry we seem to be having so many misunderstandings here

I'm also talking about the Kii, not the D&D.

When you say the Kii needed to be attenuated, I guess the heart of my question is, who needed to attenuate them?

 

[Soniclife]

When you say the Kii needed to be attenuated, I guess the heart of my question is, who needed to attenuate them?

From the below question and quote.
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dutch-dutch-8cs.2299/post-100403

mitchco said:
But the Kii THREE needs -5 dB attenuation from 3 kHz to 20 kHz, whereas the 8c's do not..

You said...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Why do you say the Kii "needs" 5dB of attenuation and the 8C doesn't?

 

[andreasmaaan]

From the below question and quote.
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dutch-dutch-8cs.2299/post-100403
You said...

Ok yeh

Now I see how we got at cross-purposes. I was interested in the measured on-axis downward slope in the Stereophile measurements. Totally separate question from Mitch's personal measurements.

Thanks for the back and forth.

 

[Soniclife]

Ok yeh

Now I see how we got at cross-purposes. I was interested in the measured on-axis downward slope in the Stereophile measurements. Totally separate question from Mitch's personal measurements.

Thanks for the back and forth.

No idea about that, unit to unit variation?

I wish they would not say it's an anechoic measurement, when it's not.

 

[andreasmaaan]

No idea about that, unit to unit variation?

I wish they would not say it's an anechoic measurement, when it's not.

Funny that, I swear they used to always admit it was "quasi-anechoic"...

 

[Cosmik]

Different directivity/angle of dispersion would result in different in-room curves, even if both were scrupulously flat in an anechoic chamber and both were 'neutral'. If it's neutral and you adjust the FR to an in-room 'target curve' it will be wrongly set up.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Different directivity/angle of dispersion would result in different in-room curves, even if both were scrupulously flat in an anechoic chamber and both were 'neutral'. If it's neutral and you adjust the FR to an in-room 'target curve' it will be wrongly set up.

(Except below the Schroeder frequency...probably)

 

[Soniclife]

Different directivity/angle of dispersion would result in different in-room curves, even if both were scrupulously flat in an anechoic chamber and both were 'neutral'

That's the bit I'm trying to understand, from the measurements we have they both are flat on axis in a chamber, and both have similar polar maps, but the 8c's slope down naturally at the listening position but the Kii's do not, in Mitch's room at least. Based on the polar maps I would have guessed it's the Kii that would have sloped down, not the D&D.

 

[stunta]

For the 8c, is the recommended 40 cm distance from the front wall minimum or maximum? Given the depth of these speakers (380 mm) and my room, I will need them placed as close to the wall as possible - probably 15 cm - to even consider these speakers.