Factors that make amplifiers sound different from each other?

[nyxnyxnyx]

Hi.... I have had this specific question for a long time but i never found a shortened (but detailed enough) answer

I think at this point i have tried over 15 amplifiers both tube and SS , while some were very identical to each other in my listening sessions , others were pretty unique and distinctive on their own .

So being here , i would hope amp experts and audiophiles along sharing possible factors that can and/or will impact how an amplifier plays out!


I hope we'll see many opinions here......Cheers

 

[q3cpma]

Could be a lot of things in the case of coloured amplifiers, but common sense here will tell you that good (neutral) amps all measure and sound the same.
And that neutral isn't hard to reach, as far as audibility is concerned; which is why I'd buy a class D Crown or Behringer if I had to go passive.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

Could be a lot of things in the case of coloured amplifiers, but common sense here will tell you that good (neutral) amps all measure and sound the same.
And that neutral isn't hard to reach, as far as audibility is concerned; which is why I'd buy a class D Crown or Behringer if I had to go passive.

Thanks for your comment! i feel the same with you as i feel like it is so difficult to hear clear audible differences between two very pristinely measured amps ....

anyway , i am still hoping to learn more about amps

 

[Soniclife]

while some were very identical to each other in my listening sessions , others were pretty unique and distinctive on their own

Can you describe your listening tests. Which amps stood out as most different from the others?

Gain, output power, clipping behaviour and output impedance are some areas they can differ.

 

[Wes]

more importantly, describe whether your listening sessions were done blind or not

if not, the sound of the amp will combine with the look of the amp & etc. to form your sensory impressions of sound

if they were done blind, level matched, same system & room, etc. then freq. response and even order distortion products are the most likely factors

 

[SIY]

Major real-world differences between engineered amps:

Power capability, especially into real loads.

Source impedance.

That's pretty much it. You have to spend a pile of money to get something with high enough distortion or poor enough stability to be audible.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

Can you describe your listening tests. Which amps stood out as most different from the others?

Gain, output power, clipping behaviour and output impedance are some areas they can differ.

My listening test was pretty simple , same headphones (hd800 , hd600 , neumann ndh20 .....) , same songs from the same source (computer&DAC) only with different amplifiers .
Some amplifiers that stood out to me are darkvoice 337se , leptoni (a small tube brand) something , and the new rupert neve amplifier .
Of course strictly speaking i'm retelling from my memory and it might not be entirely accurate , and i am aware of other possibilities like placebo , a lack of true blind test etc ..... it's just my impression .

Major real-world differences between engineered amps:

Power capability, especially into real loads.

Source impedance.

That's pretty much it. You have to spend a pile of money to get something with high enough distortion or poor enough stability to be audible.

Thanks for the reply SIY , what about opamps and tubes though? I've seen many involved in opamp/tube rolling . Do they play a cemented factor in twisting an amplifier's sound?

more importantly, describe whether your listening sessions were done blind or not

if not, the sound of the amp will combine with the look of the amp & etc. to form your sensory impressions of sound

if they were done blind, level matched, same system & room, etc. then freq. response and even order distortion products are the most likely factors

I've never really done a true a/b blind test before , everything i described was strictly extracted from my memory so it could be incorrect .

 

[SIY]

Thanks for the reply SIY , what about opamps and tubes though? I've seen many involved in opamp/tube rolling . Do they play a cemented factor in twisting an amplifier's sound?

If the person doing the "rolling" knows less than the original designer (99.9% likely), the best possible outcome is not making things significantly worse.

That does not prevent all sorts of wild stories on internet forums. Ignoramuses need to be entertained.

 

[pozz]

Number one electrical reason for audible differences is a lack of power. I would rate all other aspects a distant second.

opamp/tube rolling

Go here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_Equipment_Reviews/

Select just Tube Rolling and Op-Amp Rolling under review type:

This should answer some of your questions.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

If the person doing the "rolling" knows less than the original designer (99.9% likely), the best possible outcome is not making things significantly worse.

That does not prevent all sorts of wild stories on internet forums. Ignoramuses need to be entertained.

View attachment 53652

Thank you for your reply , there is another thing that i have seen quite frequently on DIY forum and that is *resistor* . The common talk is after a certain amount of playtime the resistors built inside the amplifier will start to lose some quality which could lead to a slightly changed sound . What do you think about that?

And what is up with that picture hahaha , is it some sort of a tin-foil hat?

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

Number one electrical reason for audible differences is a lack of power. I would rate all other aspects a distant second.

Go here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_Equipment_Reviews/

Select just Tube Rolling and Op-Amp Rolling under review type:
View attachment 53655
This should answer some of your questions.

Thank you!!! Can't believe i missed this feature , you guys surely created such a helpful tool .
And when you mentioned a lack of power , do you mean as in the capability of the amplifier (f.e atom can only pumps out 1w maximum) or the lack of power provided to said amplifier? (bad power supply , other electrical issues etc....) .
I'm sorry if this question sounds a bit dumb haha , but i'm not fully sure if i understood you correctly .

 

[SIY]

Thank you for your reply , there is another thing that i have seen quite frequently on DIY forum and that is *resistor* . The common talk is after a certain amount of playtime the resistors built inside the amplifier will start to lose some quality which could lead to a slightly changed sound . What do you think about that?

Some years ago, I visited a high quality Burgundy producer. Their winemaker was a guy whose nickname was The Accountant, because he was very neat, quiet, and reserved. And indeed, he was very precise, unemotional, and succinct in his conversation with us. At one point, though, one of the guys I was with brought up a bad review of one of their wines (written by someone who had no business writing about wine). The Accountant tightened up, his eyes flashed, and he said in a very even tone, "The problem with freedom of speech..." (pause) "...is that people can write all sorts of nonsense."

The same people who write that kind of stuff will never, ever test their immaculate auditory impressions by only using their ears and not peeking, i.e., double blind. So you can dismiss anything they say out of hand since there isn't even a whiff of any sort of controls.

 

[sergeauckland]

Thank you for your reply , there is another thing that i have seen quite frequently on DIY forum and that is *resistor* . The common talk is after a certain amount of playtime the resistors built inside the amplifier will start to lose some quality which could lead to a slightly changed sound . What do you think about that?

And what is up with that picture hahaha , is it some sort of a tin-foil hat?

In a word, bollocks! It's true that some of the carbon composition resistors used in the 1950s have changed value by enough to affect performance, but these haven't been used since the early 1960s. Electrolytic capacitors can change in value, but even those usually last at least 20 years, and I have several amplifiers over 40 years old and still working to spec with original capacitors. Pretty much all other components hardly age at all, although of course can fail.

S

 

[andymok]

If the person doing the "rolling" knows less than the original designer (99.9% likely), the best possible outcome is not making things significantly worse.

That does not prevent all sorts of wild stories on internet forums. Ignoramuses need to be entertained.

View attachment 53652

Not quite follow why the struggle session / self-criticism ...

 

[pozz]

Thank you!!! Can't believe i missed this feature , you guys surely created such a helpful tool .
And when you mentioned a lack of power , do you mean as in the capability of the amplifier (f.e atom can only pumps out 1w maximum) or the lack of power provided to said amplifier? (bad power supply , other electrical issues etc....) .
I'm sorry if this question sounds a bit dumb haha , but i'm not fully sure if i understood you correctly .

I'm just echoing what @SIY said above about power delivery into real loads. I think clipping behaviour was also mentioned as well. If you look at clipping in a scope, that rounding or flat-topping represents new spectral components (harmonic/enharmonic). Check out: Composition of a Square Wave and this post.

An low-powered amp could easily be overdriven into clipping. What matters in the end is what comes out of the amp terminals. If you're a designer you can diagnose issues and misbehaviours by looking at that output through a scope. But assuming a general level of competency what ends up mattering is whether or not the amp can reproduce the signal's voltage by supplying enough watts.

 

[SIY]

Not quite follow why the struggle session / self-criticism ...

Clearly I need to repent of my attitude about the ridiculousness of audio fads like op-amp rolling. I have deviated and should suffer the ignominy.

 

[cjm2077]

In a word, bollocks! It's true that some of the carbon composition resistors used in the 1950s have changed value by enough to affect performance, but these haven't been used since the early 1960s. Electrolytic capacitors can change in value, but even those usually last at least 20 years, and I have several amplifiers over 40 years old and still working to spec with original capacitors. Pretty much all other components hardly age at all, although of course can fail.

S

Exactly. Old tube amps had parts that aged more when exposed to heat, ran much hotter (due to those tubes), and the tubes themselves aged and varied in performance a bit from lot to lot and brand to brand. So a lot of the "advice" that started with tube amps got transferred to solid state amps where they are completely wrong. You don't have to shield them from vibrations. The parts shouldn't be prone to much aging and shouldn't be exposed to much heat (in a proper design). And swapping parts at random is highly unlikely to make it perform better. Just buy something that performs well and leave it be.

 

[dieselmilk]

The point about people applying tube-amp degradation and characteristics to ss amps and even digital signals is very true. The only thing you have to do is make sure the amp is powerful enough to properly drive the load and is made from at least decent components. A lot of people confuse the fact that a suitably powered amp sounds good due to a million other reasons aside from that basic point. They start with a decent 100W amp into 4 ohm speakers at 83db sensitivity but drive it to clipping or distortion trying to reach the volume they like. Instead of recognize the amp is just fine for what it is and they are just using it in the wrong application, they call it junk and spend $10k on a boutique amp and fawn over how much better it sounds. Usually this amp now supplies 600wpc in the same speakers and what do you know? It sounds great! They will ignore that and say it was the $6000 AC power cables and wood block cable floor spacers that changed their life. Use the right tool for the right job and ignore the psychopaths that can literally convince themselves of anything, we're smarter than that. Buy decent equipment suitable for your application and you will happy for the rest of your life. Ignore the siren song to buy equipment 10x the price due to what idiots say and then try to convince yourself you made the right choice because you can't admit to yourself you wasted an exorbitant amount of money.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

The point about people applying tube-amp degradation and characteristics to ss amps and even digital signals is very true. The only thing you have to do is make sure the amp is powerful enough to properly drive the load and is made from at least decent components. A lot of people confuse the fact that a suitably powered amp sounds good due to a million other reasons aside from that basic point. They start with a decent 100W amp into 4 ohm speakers at 83db sensitivity but drive it to clipping or distortion trying to reach the volume they like. Instead of recognize the amp is just fine for what it is and they are just using it in the wrong application, they call it junk and spend $10k on a boutique amp and fawn over how much better it sounds. Usually this amp now supplies 600wpc in the same speakers and what do you know? It sounds great! They will ignore that and say it was the $6000 AC power cables and wood block cable floor spacers that changed their life. Use the right tool for the right job and ignore the psychopaths that can literally convince themselves of anything, we're smarter than that. Buy decent equipment suitable for your application and you will happy for the rest of your life. Ignore the siren song to buy equipment 10x the price due to what idiots say and then try to convince yourself you made the right choice because you can't admit to yourself you wasted an exorbitant amount of money.

Well said Milk , thank you for replying to the thread .
Yet off the topic there's still something i want to ask everyone here : Is there a way to know if i am not providing my amplifier a good condition? It might have never been a problem to many of you but apparently in where i'm based at (some 3rd world country) many people pretty much agree that the electricity condition here is pretty bad compared to "living standard" like in US or EU . And i think i've seen many local audio lovers equipping extra gears to help coordinating with the issue . Should i be worrying about it?

 

[dieselmilk]

Well said Milk , thank you for replying to the thread .
Yet off the topic there's still something i want to ask everyone here : Is there a way to know if i am not providing my amplifier a good condition? It might have never been a problem to many of you but apparently in where i'm based at (some 3rd world country) many people pretty much agree that the electricity condition here is pretty bad compared to "living standard" like in US or EU . And i think i've seen many local audio lovers equipping extra gears to help coordinating with the issue . Should i be worrying about it?

I haven't had to, but I think there are devices you can let electricity pass through while you continue to use an outlet and record performance over a week or so to see if it's performing as advertised. That can also let you check if your equipment is getting enough power. If it is truly bad, there is often not much you can do that won't cost a ridiculous amount of money to fix and power cords are not going to solve anything. Are you seeing power surges, dropouts, or other inconsistencies? If reliability from your supplier is bad, there is nothing that you can do. If you're rich, use a generator and wire your listening room to a dedicated regulated circuit and the generator.