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Good second-hand integrated or power amplifiers?

Kevster

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I was surprised to find in a recent thread that my old Marantz PM6010OSE amplifier is thought to be reasonably acceptable even today. It is fairly well used and has a few issues though, and I wonder if there might be a better alternative available. For instance, the Nad c320bee was measured on ASR with a SINAD of about 95. So that is a fairly strong contender (and even appears to allow access to the power amp stage without needing the pre-amp) but I wonder if there are also others along those lines that people could suggest?

My use is with active crossovers in a fairly small room. I will probably get a behringer a800 for the bass drivers; the reviews and measurements are strong. But the power of that is 'way' overkill even for DSP'd bass in this situation, and hence I wonder if something more subtle might be better for the mid/high ranges? If not, I might as well just get more of those.

Essentially, I'm looking for sufficient performance to make CD-quality recordings effectively transparent, achieved by models that are commonly available (e.g on ebay etc), rather than premium-priced TOTL or classics. Of key importance are noise, hiss, mains-hum etc.; in an active setup the amp itself needs to be quiet. Also reliability, otherwise I may as well just buy the latest (very)well-measuring budget amp.

Thanks,
kev
 

HarmonicTHD

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I was surprised to find in a recent thread that my old Marantz PM6010OSE amplifier is thought to be reasonably acceptable even today. It is fairly well used and has a few issues though, and I wonder if there might be a better alternative available. For instance, the Nad c320bee was measured on ASR with a SINAD of about 95. So that is a fairly strong contender (and even appears to allow access to the power amp stage without needing the pre-amp) but I wonder if there are also others along those lines that people could suggest?

My use is with active crossovers in a fairly small room. I will probably get a behringer a800 for the bass drivers; the reviews and measurements are strong. But the power of that is 'way' overkill even for DSP'd bass in this situation, and hence I wonder if something more subtle might be better for the mid/high ranges? If not, I might as well just get more of those.

Essentially, I'm looking for sufficient performance to make CD-quality recordings effectively transparent, achieved by models that are commonly available (e.g on ebay etc), rather than premium-priced TOTL or classics. Of key importance are noise, hiss, mains-hum etc.; in an active setup the amp itself needs to be quiet. Also reliability, otherwise I may as well just buy the latest (very)well-measuring budget amp.

Thanks,
kev
I would go with what you wrote in your last sentence.
 
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Kevster

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A new budget amp would be a possibility, yes. In a few cases they measure well, but I'm somewhat sceptical about their longevity compared to the better quality (of manufacture) that a similarly priced second hand amp might offer. But that might well be baseless and naive thinking on my part.

There also aren't very many ASR measurements of older amps, so lots of them would be a gamble based on people's subjective opinions. I'm not obsessed with extreme performance figures that one wouldnt hear, but am still much happier to have at least decent objective numbers as a baseline.

Thanks!
 

Recluse-Animator

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If you can find an AVR for the same price as an integrated or an amp then that would be a better bang for the buck.
 

Zek

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If you can find an AVR for the same price as an integrated or an amp then that would be a better bang for the buck.
Why would an AVR of the same price as an integrated amplifier be a better option - give a concrete example.
 

kemmler3D

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I look for secondhand as much as I can. In my area the market is pretty healthy. Recently picked up two Nord Hypex NC500 monoblocks on Craigslist. I have also seen a few NAD 2200s out there (watch out, I bought one and it was a lemon, luckily was able to return it) and a handful of half-decent older parasound items.

My advice is to find a few models/ranges that you'd snap up in a heartbeat and create Craigslist or other alerts for them. I had a "hypex" alert running for a few months on the off chance, and it paid off. The modern hypex modules have been out there long enough that people are starting to upgrade away from them, or replace. The guy I bought mine from actually bought two sets of the same amps, then decided to sell two to make space. Audiophiles...
 

Recluse-Animator

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Why would an AVR of the same price as an integrated amplifier be a better option - give a concrete example.
Well if the wattage is the same or enough then you have the benefit of more inputs, outputs and possible room correction and Bluetooth / Wi-Fi if it has those.
 
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Kevster

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Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I especially like the idea of setting up alerts and notifications. As there have been no other specific suggestions, I'll probably limit the search to models that have been tested on ASR, in order that they are of at least known (audio) quality. It might be that a recent model could be bought second-hand, getting the best of both worlds
Cheers
Kev
 

kemmler3D

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ASR and other audiophile forums also have buy-and-sell sections that tend to feature more recent and high-end gear. There's also Reverb in the US for audio gear, that mostly focuses on pro audio / musician stuff, but often has some good hifi gear. The deals may not be as juicy but the selection tends to be better. Facebook Marketplace also includes a good deal of secondhand audio gear, almost as much as Craigslist, if you happen to be on there.

I often hear that Goodwill and other secondhand stores are a resource for exceptional deals on gear, but you have to come in with a good knowledge of what you're looking at, and get really lucky, personally I've never found anything in such a store that would be worth taking home.
 

Mart68

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Denon PMA250 and 350 are pretty safe bets. Also the lower tier of Sony ES amplifiers from late 1980s through early 1990s.

They are all better cosmetically than the NAD 320BEE which is a bit plasticky. If you don't mind that then the NAD is a good buy and has remote control which the others don't.
 

Gorgonzola

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I was surprised to find in a recent thread that my old Marantz PM6010OSE amplifier is thought to be reasonably acceptable even today. It is fairly well used and has a few issues though, and I wonder if there might be a better alternative available. For instance, the Nad c320bee was measured on ASR with a SINAD of about 95. So that is a fairly strong contender (and even appears to allow access to the power amp stage without needing the pre-amp) but I wonder if there are also others along those lines that people could suggest?

My use is with active crossovers in a fairly small room. I will probably get a behringer a800 for the bass drivers; the reviews and measurements are strong. But the power of that is 'way' overkill even for DSP'd bass in this situation, and hence I wonder if something more subtle might be better for the mid/high ranges? If not, I might as well just get more of those.

Essentially, I'm looking for sufficient performance to make CD-quality recordings effectively transparent, achieved by models that are commonly available (e.g on ebay etc), rather than premium-priced TOTL or classics. Of key importance are noise, hiss, mains-hum etc.; in an active setup the amp itself needs to be quiet. Also reliability, otherwise I may as well just buy the latest (very)well-measuring budget amp.

Thanks,
kev
I think a NAD C320BEE is a good bet and it shouldn't be too hard to find a used one.
 

Mart68

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PMA250SE & PMA350SE are better.;)
Possibly. My own possibly irrational preference is for the early ones whether SE or not, but only one I have now is an original PMA250SE UK.
 
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Kevster

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Thank you for the suggestions, that has helped quite a lot. Whilst ASR hasn't tested them all, their published specifications are available and are also noticeably better than for my current ones, which is promising.

Doing some further research, it appears that for my particular application I should pay more attention to the noise floor than I have in the past. This is because it will involve both close-up listening to (potentially quite sensitive) speakers and also the absence of any passive crossovers. Volume control/attenuation will also be done upstream, whilst the gain of the power amp will remain either at maximum or at least fairly high.

Several amps that I've seen which are actually designed for this type of use (i.e. as power amplifiers) often have a better SNR than many, say around 110dB or more. Which is over 20dB better than what I have now. In fact all those models kindly suggested earlier are an improvement, with the C320BEE showing particularly well and even offering line level input that bypasses things like the input selector switch (that I wouldn't use).
 
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Kevster

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I would go with what you wrote in your last sentence.
(to recap, my last couple of sentences were: "Of key importance are noise, hiss, mains-hum etc.; in an active setup the amp itself needs to be quiet. Also reliability, otherwise I may as well just buy the latest (very)well-measuring budget amp.")

You were quite right and sadly I didn't give your opinion enough weight. So I tried a couple of second hand alternatives to my PM6010OSE and they were similarly good but without some of the age-related annoyances, and I was happy. But this week, for a desktop application, I bought a small and low cost Topping PA3s.

I hadn't imagined an amp would make much difference, but crikey. It is quiet even with RCA input, but almost silent with balanced - even with very high sensitivity tweeters up close. Things (very noticeably vocals) sound much clearer, and even though it is a small amp it has a very decent punch. I have not blind-tested this, but the difference is not particularly subtle.

So I suspect my older amplifiers will have gracefully degraded over time and might benefit from renovation. But I'm now more interested in newer designs/types. Though reliability is still an elephant in the room for the cheaper brands; the PA3s seems fairly well regarded but some of its bigger brothers have had issues. So perhaps it is still necessary to part with good money for good amps, even with modern designs and other classes (like class-D) etc.
 
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NoMoFoNo

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The general consensus around here seems to be that an amp with SINAD >80 should perform well. Regarding buying used, I've had very mixed results buying used amps online. Half of my ebay purchases proved DOA or not-as-described by sellers. Food for thought although I would buy used online again in the right circumstance.

FWIW, I recently picked up a Fosi Audio V3 with 48V/5A power supply for just about $100 shipped. It performs remarkably well even compared to more elaborate equipment I own or have used in the past. The eminently affordable chip amps never sounded great to me but the V3 seems, to my ears, fully competent to serve as 'primary amp' in my system(s) and, as Amir noted in his review of the V3, the manufacturers of pieces like the V3 are getting very close to completely changing the market for amplification.
 
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radix

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There are some brick & mortar stores that sell used (often trade-in) equipment that they have tested. audioclassics (mostly mcintosh) and scott walker audio are two I've used before and had great results from (this is in the USA). For thinks like hypex or smaller brands, probably audiomart or craigslist or the ASR buy/sell forum. The advantage of craigslist is you can usually go see it and hear it first, so you'll know it's not terribly out of spec. If it's just a few years old (versus a 1980-90s vintage), there's likely not much that could go wrong with it so long as it was not mistreated.

That all said, if you want peace of mind, try a class D from https://nordacoustics.co.uk or https://apollonaudio.com. Nord has amps of all price ranges and is a UK dealer.
 

digitalfrost

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I have had a NAD C320BEE since it came out. I used it as a normal amp for years. Later I started smoking and I smoked a lot in the same room as the NAD. Still later, I repurposed it as power amplifier for my subwoofers, and it was standing on its sidewall inbetween the desk and a rack (not a lot of space). It can get very hot here. It always just worked. I had it running for hours, not just short times, but really 8 hours or more. When I was home and on the PC this amp was on.

I opened it once to check the bias voltages and I didn't have to adjust anything. That thing is a tank. Highly recommended.

The downside is, idle power is rather high. I measured it with 50W I think, the datasheet states <35W IIRC, but still if you use it all day, AHB2 or class-D might be the better option.
 
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Kevster

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Yeah, one good thing about older (decent) amps is that they're usually built fairly well and there has been enough time to judge how reliable they are. Some of the otherwise impressive and cheap modern types seem fragile and have started to show unreliability within the first year(s). Though not all of them, which is encouraging.

That said, most of the older amps that I've tried have needed renovation. Especially things like switches and pots, but sometimes main capacitors, and a couple have had faults. So, as radix suggested, newer used amps might actually be a better bet. Especially as there seems to be a lot of nostalgia (which I can identify with) over older amps, that keeps their prices perhaps higher than is objectively justified.

But my latest little budget purchase has opened my eyes. I've seen these small amps dismissed as toys so shied away, but no. It easily beats all my older amps in terms of silence and low noise floor, it is very clear indeed for vocals and (surprisingly) is very good on dynamics, too. My only reservations are about reliability; but with that caveat I'm tempted to agree with what NoMoFoNo was saying about change in the market. For more powerful applications I'll certainly be looking at the modern bigger class-D options.
 
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