How Phono Cartridges Work

[Sal1950]

The Stanton's always came with great documentation and frequency graphs.

 

[Sal1950]

variable reluctance

Sounds like a few girls I've dated, their reluctance varied with the intoxicants. LOL

 

[watchnerd]

...
View attachment 2593

These graphs are amazingly sobering.

One of my favorite carts is my Nagaoka MP-500, which looks to measure pretty damn well, especially at the price point.

It's sobering to see how many well regarded carts don't measure better than what I already own, despite the various internet hype cycles.

That being said, the Benz Micro ACE S L looks to be amazingly good for the price, measuring even better than the very competent MP-500 for only about $400 more.

It's too bad they're unavailable in the US..... *cry*

 

[TBone]

These graphs are amazingly sobering.

One of my favorite carts is my Nagaoka MP-500, which looks to measure pretty damn well, especially at the price point.

It's sobering to see how many well regarded carts don't measure better than what I already own, despite the various internet hype cycles.

That being said, the Benz Micro ACE S L looks to be amazingly good for the price, measuring even better than the very competent MP-500 for only about $400 more.

It's too bad they're unavailable in the US..... *cry*

Benz make good carts at all price points, however they suffer, like many manufacturers, from having way too many models. Nagaoka, on the other hand have stayed the course, hardly changing the lineup except for adding another digit (MP10/MP100). They consistently measure well and are built to last. They also use proprietary technology which IMO provides 'em with a big advantage in terms of moving-mass. The fact http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/ measured near 40dB separation numbers for the MP500 surprised me silly. The only competing MC in terms of high separation - was the much more expensive Benz LPS. IMO, the MP300 offers the best overall value within their line.

I'm currently using the MP50S. Unlike the MP50/500, Nagaoka deviated from boron to sapphire cantilever for this model. In fact, this is the first non-boron cartridge I've used in decades. The advantages of boron vs sapphire are debatable; it could be argued boron retains slight advantages. Nagoaka specs the MP50S the same as the MP50/500 @27dB separation @1khz, but it's nice to see it measured over a wider range ...

The MP50S separation values (current setup).

note: w/this specific test record - to get the above tracks to line up properly spec-wise is wishful thinking. The AL, left track, is track#1 and is slightly warped upward, azimuth is offset. The BR, right track is next and it slightly better, but not near perfect. This may explain why the right channel specs measure slightly better.

Running it a 1.12 grams VTF, the lowest down-force I've dragged any cartridge, in decades.

Anyway, yapping about a particular sound of rigs/cartridges is near useless as a relative tool ... so here are some snips using the above setup / latest ripping session.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tahs5ezm9kz4dfw/112SNIPS3.flac?dl=0

 

[watchnerd]

Benz make good carts at all price points, however they suffer, like many manufacturers, from having way too many models. Nagaoka, on the other hand have stayed the course, hardly changing the lineup except for adding another digit (MP10/MP100). They consistently measure well and are built to last. They also use proprietary technology which IMO provides 'em with a big advantage in terms of moving-mass. The fact http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/ measured near 40dB separation numbers for the MP500 surprised me silly. The only competing MC in terms of high separation - was the much more expensive Benz LPS. IMO, the MP300 offers the best overall value within their line.

I'm currently using the MP50S. Unlike the MP50/500, Nagaoka deviated from boron to sapphire cantilever for this model. In fact, this is the first non-boron cartridge I've used in decades. The advantages of boron vs sapphire are debatable; it could be argued boron retains slight advantages. Nagoaka specs the MP50S the same as the MP50/500 @27dB separation @1khz, but it's nice to see it measured over a wider range ...

The MP50S separation values (current setup).
View attachment 14902

note: w/this specific test record - to get the above tracks to line up properly spec-wise is wishful thinking. The AL, left track, is track#1 and is slightly warped upward, azimuth is offset. The BR, right track is next and it slightly better, but not near perfect. This may explain why the right channel specs measure slightly better.

Running it a 1.12 grams VTF, the lowest down-force I've dragged any cartridge, in decades.

Anyway, yapping about a particular sound of rigs/cartridges is near useless as a relative tool ... so here are some snips using the above setup / latest ripping session.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tahs5ezm9kz4dfw/112SNIPS3.flac?dl=0

Thanks for the rip link! I'll download and listen later.

Speaking of stereo separation....I just got an AT33 Mono, haven't mounted it yet, was waiting for the matching 18g headshell. This will be my first "true mono" cartridge (as opposed to using a stereo cart with the mono switch engaged).

Based on the hype, I should expect a revelatory experience....but I'm skeptical and can't imagine it being vastly different than stereo + mono switch; I expect to hear more differences from the conical stylus as compared to the more advanced shapes I normally listen to.

 

[restorer-john]

The Stanton's always came with great documentation and frequency graphs.

Isn't that a 681EEE calibration standard in its metal case. I had one exactly the same, but the stylus was black IIRC.

 

[restorer-john]

...Even tried winding a MC cartridge once. It was less than a total success...

OK, I'll bite. Microscope, medical instruments, lots of swearing and super glue?

 

[Sal1950]

Isn't that a 681EEE calibration standard in its metal case. I had one exactly the same, but the stylus was black IIRC.

One of the top of the lines. Could be a 881S also IIRC, I've owned both.

 

[DonH56]

OK, I'll bite. Microscope, medical instruments, lots of swearing and super glue?

Yup, pretty much spot on. The microscope was a low-power stereo vision model like we use for assembly of those teensy SMD's these days, and electronic tweezers and such plus some tools from my dad's (PhD microbiology) lab. Might as well have been medical tools. Very fine wire, magnets robbed from another cartridge, ditto cantilever and stylus, and several types of glue were tried (I think this was before superglue was common, but some reagents from my Dad's lab were essentially the same thing). I tried using a Dremel to spin the cantilever and wind the coils; managed to break a few along the way (cantilevers, not Dremels, though Dremels are pretty rugged based on some minor bit of frustrated experience). Before I was done I was wishing I had a scalpel, not sure if I would have used it on the cart or myself... I did get it to work but decided I was no Koetsu maker.

 

[restorer-john]

I tried using a Dremel to spin the cantilever and wind the coils

My Dremel starts up at about 3,000 RPM and goes to about 32,000 RPM- you must have used a light dimmer or something to slow the b#$tard down!

Would have been fun to watch- I can imagine the cantilever shearing at the chuck, flying off and you swearing...

 

[DonH56]

Can't honestly recall, it was a friend's. It wasn't one of the usual handheld units; the motor hung on a support with a flexible shaft to the tool tip and the control was a foot pedal. I have a vague memory of a gear reduction unit up on the motor. I know it ran pretty slowly -- he used it for making (scribing) art on metal. That was back in the early 1980's when I knew everything and was better at it than anybody. Life has whupped me upside the head a few (dozen, hundred, thousand, million) times since then.

 

[restorer-john]

...That was back in the early 1980's when I knew everything...

That was the 80s' fault, it affected us all that way.

 

[watchnerd]

That was the 80s' fault, it affected us all that way.

I had two earrings and hair like Dee Snyder from Twisted Sister, ankle high leather boots with spikes, jeans with holes in them, a Nordic paganism Thor's hammer necklace with beads the colors of the Rastafari flag, Lou Reed aviators, a black leather jacket with Che Guevara's face on the back with an anarchy symbol underneath, a Bundeswher logo on one shoulder and a German Democratic Republic logo on the other, a leather belt with a giant cowboy belt buckle with a rhinestone encrusted $ sign, and a Sisters of Mercy t-shirt.

 

[watchnerd]

Benz make good carts at all price points, however they suffer, like many manufacturers, from having way too many models. Nagaoka, on the other hand have stayed the course, hardly changing the lineup except for adding another digit (MP10/MP100). They consistently measure well and are built to last. They also use proprietary technology which IMO provides 'em with a big advantage in terms of moving-mass. The fact http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/ measured near 40dB separation numbers for the MP500 surprised me silly. The only competing MC in terms of high separation - was the much more expensive Benz LPS. IMO, the MP300 offers the best overall value within their line.

I'm currently using the MP50S. Unlike the MP50/500, Nagaoka deviated from boron to sapphire cantilever for this model. In fact, this is the first non-boron cartridge I've used in decades. The advantages of boron vs sapphire are debatable; it could be argued boron retains slight advantages. Nagoaka specs the MP50S the same as the MP50/500 @27dB separation @1khz, but it's nice to see it measured over a wider range ...

The MP50S separation values (current setup).
View attachment 14902

note: w/this specific test record - to get the above tracks to line up properly spec-wise is wishful thinking. The AL, left track, is track#1 and is slightly warped upward, azimuth is offset. The BR, right track is next and it slightly better, but not near perfect. This may explain why the right channel specs measure slightly better.

Running it a 1.12 grams VTF, the lowest down-force I've dragged any cartridge, in decades.

Anyway, yapping about a particular sound of rigs/cartridges is near useless as a relative tool ... so here are some snips using the above setup / latest ripping session.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tahs5ezm9kz4dfw/112SNIPS3.flac?dl=0

He's an interesting factoid I haven't seen anywhere else:

Nagaoka doesn't publicly disclose the minor / major radii of the MP-500 anywhere, calling it a "Superfine line contact" or "highly polished line contact", which could be almost anything.

I contacted Nagaoka technical support in Europe, they sent the question to Japan, and they finally answered.

The minor radius is 7 microns; they didn't disclose the major radius.

7 microns = 0.275 mil. Round it up to 0.28.

Which also happens to be the minor radius of all the Audio Technica cartridges that use a "Special Line Contact" stylus, namely the TOTL cartridges in each of their respective ranges: ART 1000, ART 9, ART 7, and VM760SLC.

Brilliant marketing by AT, by the way, to relegate the main competition's mass market top stylus shape, the Ortofon black series Shibata cartridges (2M Black, Quintet Black, Cadenza Black) to 2nd tier in the AT line-up (AT33Sa is just below the ART 9 in price, the VM750SH is just below the VM760SLC), and then bump the line contact up to 1st tier.

Which then raises the question of why they moved the Micro Line styli to last place....possibly to "downgrade" the comparison to Jico SAS?

 

[RayDunzl]

Slow down, I'm still thinking about your previous post...

 

[Sal1950]

That was back in the early 1980's when I knew everything and was better at it than anybody. Life has whupped me upside the head a few (dozen, hundred, thousand, million) times since then.

The 80's is a decade best forgotten, about it's only good attributes were,
Disco music died an inglorious death.
Ronald Reagan was voted in as president and led the country to victory in the Cold War.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Brilliant marketing by AT, by the way, to relegate the main competition's mass market top stylus shape, the Ortofon black series Shibata cartridges (2M Black, Quintet Black, Cadenza Black) to 2nd tier in the AT line-up (AT33Sa is just below the ART 9 in price, the VM750SH is just below the VM760SLC), and then bump the line contact up to 1st tier.

Ortofon's top stylus is the replicant (now replicant 100), which is the closest to the cutter shape I have yet seen. It first appeared on the MC3000 II and has been used on most of their top cartridges since.
It is so close to the groove shape that azimuth is very critical, get it a bit wrong and it is miles out.

 

[watchnerd]

Ortofon's top stylus is the replicant (now replicant 100), which is the closest to the cutter shape I have yet seen. It first appeared on the MC3000 II and has been used on most of their top cartridges since.
It is so close to the groove shape that azimuth is very critical, get it a bit wrong and it is miles out.

Note I referred to: "competition's mass market top stylus shape", specifically in the color series that tops out with the Black models, which all use Shibata.

Styli used in the A95, Winfield Anna, etc, aren't part of that series.

 

[Jake's Dad]

+1 on watchnerd's comment. Thanks so much for pointing us to this site. For those considering, registration is painless, and fast.

Also, to @RayDunzl's query, in a (semi) random sampling of tests, at least the Ortofon cartridges performed well in the lowest 5 octaves (2 -500hz). Really, a wealth of information on this site.

 

[watchnerd]

The 80's is a decade best forgotten, about it's only good attributes were,
Disco music died an inglorious death.
Ronald Reagan was voted in as president and led the country to victory in the Cold War.

Oh, come on, it wasn't completely without merit....The Police, Metallica, Wynton Marsallis, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Magnum PI, The Terminator, Blade Runner, Chevy Camaro Z-28, Atari 2600, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, and Erin Gray as Wilma Deering on Buck Rogers in the 25th Century.