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Let's talk audio capacitors

amirm

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So I was going through my CES 2016 pictures and ran into these images of what is inside Light Harmonic DACs/gear:

093A2629.jpg


The capacitors in the back are from Japanese company, ELNA. It is their SILMIC II series which are for audio applications. This is what they have to say about them: http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/onkyou/silmic.html

"The "SILMIC" series of aluminum electrolytic capacitors for acoustic applications uses an entirely new type of electrolytic paper. The primary constituent of the newly developed electrolytic paper is silk fiber. This paper was believed unfathomable as an aluminum electrolytic capacitor. The new product beats the silk fiber and mixes it with Manila hemp fiber to provide an aluminum electrolytic capacitor used for high-grade music. Therefore, the series exhibits a superior acoustic characteristics.

[...]

At Elna, we have moved forward with development activities based on the perspective that this "softness" of silk can mitigate vibrational energy, which is generated from the electrodes in the capacitor. Also, this silk softness will mitigate the vibrational energy of the music propagating through the air and striking the capacitor. Ultimately, the softness will mitigate the mechanical vibrational energy that comes from transformers or rotating systems within the final product.

[...]

Due to the increase in surface area at the interface between the electrolytic paper fibers and the electrolytic solution used for driving the device, we also discovered an increase signal propagation speed (the ESR is reduced). For example, the ESR at 1kHz in the GBL electrolytic fluid for a given thickness and density ended up approximately 20% less than for the separator paper made from Manila hemp alone.

Except for the electrolytic paper, we used the exact same materials and conditions to produce a 63V 15000µF block-type capacitor and a 50V 1000µF radial lead-type small-footprint capacitor. When these were subjected to aural evaluations, the high range peak and midrange roughness were reduced substantially. Also, the low range richness and power were increased in the obtained high-quality sound.

In the "SILMIC" series, we also use anode growth foil with more unetched parts and a 55µm low multiplier high-purity cathode foil in order to improve the signal propagation. Through a synergistic effect with the characteristics of the silk, we have made it possible to produce a powerful, yet-mellow, sound that was not possible in the past by using aluminum electrolytic capacitors."

Ok, the lower ESR is a good, objective outcome. But what is with the lay assumption of how something feels to how it would sound? Silk is soft to touch. But why would that have an equiv. effect to audio as they imply? Just because we use silk, that translates into "mellow" sound???? How can "roughness" be reduced? And what is roughness?
 

tomelex

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They could have easily IMO shown results of tapping on an everyday lytic cap and one of theirs and shown the output changes, instead of us just having to believe them for their word. I actually think they have that data, they should post it.
 

AJ Soundfield

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Please tell us you're not getting into building audio electronics....
 

fas42

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Ok, the lower ESR is a good, objective outcome. But what is with the lay assumption of how something feels to how it would sound? Silk is soft to touch. But why would that have an equiv. effect to audio as they imply? Just because we use silk, that translates into "mellow" sound???? How can "roughness" be reduced? And what is roughness?
All of the unpleasant terms are weasel words for distortion, it's hard to measure, or characterise many of the forms of such, so use subjective terms to convey the impact on the sound. I just use the terms, 'right' and 'wrong' - the latter meaning that there is audible, perceivable distortion.

"Mellow" sound could be good, but if a patina is added to everything then, again, it's 'wrong'.
 

NorthSky

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Oh this is interesting...Elna (Silmic), Rubicon, etc. caps. And more small caps versus few larger ones, and their value in microfarads, and their proper max temperatures and operational voltage. Caps are in every audio electronic products, even in our smart phones (aren't they some mini ones?).

My Panasonic BR player has Elna caps in it (ex-player because it's caput now), but the CDs were sounding not bad, but thin because of the under powered section with a lilliputian transformer.
My Rotel CD players use Rubicon caps. ...Yamaha uses their own, Denon and Marantz too.

Mike, what are the best capacitor brands, and where are they made....Germany?

P.S. Another thread can discuss tubes, all type of tubes and what's inside and what they do.

* The US and Canadian armies, what kind of caps they put in their satellite radios (tanks and jet fighters and submarines and jet carriers and helicopters and destroyers)?
 
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tomelex

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The military use what is called mil-spec stuff, and virtually all of the components are from the civilian sector. The main goal of mil spec is that things are tested to a common standard per the standards. For example, the capacitor mentioned at the top of this article would not be specified specifically for military use, a rather more common electrolytic would be used. When it comes to satellite and space stuff, there the standards are higher more due to the external condition extremes of temp and bombardment by radiation in space.
 

Blumlein 88

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So will these caps used in a Blu-ray player result in smoother pictures with less roughness in bright complex images having more purple in them?
 

Mivera

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snake oil
 

NorthSky

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So will these caps used in a Blu-ray player result in smoother pictures with less roughness in bright complex images having more purple in them?

I thought caps were for audio streams, are there caps too for mountain tops and video pictures?
 

DonH56

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I have designed a number of devices for mil-spec and satellite applications. Mil-spec has several levels, and space-qual (S-level) is different. Most of the electronics in a satellite do not need full mil-spec temp range (-55 to 125 degC for most military applications; industrial is -40 to 85 degC, and commercial 0 to 70 degC) because the electronics are temperature-regulated. radiation is a big problem, though more for transistors on ICs than capacitors and other passive components. Radiation reduces gain and increases leakage. There are also shock and vibration specs, and a myriad of other things.

Some mil-spec parts are just screened commercial devices, some use special materials and fabrication techniques, and some are completely different products.

X7R ceramic capacitors are common for hi-rel products, but not a good choice in the audio (or any high-resolution) signal path as they have fairly high voltage coefficient (low tempco, though) and exhibit piezoelectric effects. There are special flavors of ceramic caps available, natch.

Except in crossovers and some power amplifiers, electrolytics are not usually used in the audio signal path.
 

Mivera

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Oh this is interesting...Elna (Silmic), Rubicon, etc. caps. And more small caps versus few larger ones, and their value in microfarads, and their proper max temperatures and operational voltage. Caps are in every audio electronic products, even in our smart phones (aren't they some mini ones?).

My Panasonic BR player has Elna caps in it (ex-player because it's caput now), but the CDs were sounding not bad, but thin because of the under powered section with a lilliputian transformer.
My Rotel CD players use Rubicon caps. ...Yamaha uses their own, Denon and Marantz too.

Mike, what are the best capacitor brands, and where are they made....Germany?

P.S. Another thread can discuss tubes, all type of tubes and what's inside and what they do.

* The US and Canadian armies, what kind of caps they put in their satellite radios (tanks and jet fighters and submarines and jet carriers and helicopters and destroyers)?

Depends on the application. The Japanese are very good at building electrolytic's.
 

Ken Newton

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Thanks but I don't understand what he is measuring. What circuit are the caps inserted in to give those distortion numbers?

Hi, Amir. Jack didn't include any details of his test procedure, so, you are correct, we can not tell if it is an apples-to-apples comparison, or even a valid distortion measurement method.
 

doitttt

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elna silmic 2 can sound very flat
but the little burnin time, same properties rubicon blackgate.
100 hours.
then also comes much better bass, quite powerful I would say
as well as better 3 d
 

DVDdoug

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So I was going through my CES 2016 pictures and ran into these images of what is inside Light Harmonic DACs/gear:

.... What circuit are the caps inserted in to give those distortion numbers?
Amir
I'd be surprised of all of those capacitors are in the audio path. Maybe none of them are. If they want, they can generally avoid electrolytics in the audio path unless you have an amplifier with a single-ended power supply and you need a DC blocking capacitor at the speaker-output. (I have an amp from the 1970's built like that... One big "computer grade" capacitor in the power supply and two more at the outputs.)

But I'm not afraid of electrolytics in the audio path as long as there is DC bias across them.
 
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