Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Miska]

No. ESS9028Q2M.

Yeah, these are the smaller "mobile" versions.

Yes, for a good reason; AK4490 was being phased out. Then the factory fire happened and most things are being phased out. RME is just staying ahead on parts. Any big brand will have a note somewhere that some parts can be changed for an equivalent. Basic supply chain things..

Replacing the AKM chip with another one maybe goes into that category. Replacing AKM chip with ESS that has completely different feature set doesn't anymore fall into that category. If you have to, then you just discontinue one model and start a new one. (measurements here wouldn't have any point too, if you could always randomly get something totally different in the box)

Car manufacturers also make small changes to engines, but when you order car you pretty much know what kind engine it is going to have. Not just randomly picked 1.5, 2.0 litre diesel or petrol. Not many would be happy if they ordered 2.0 litre petrol and got 1.5 litre diesel instead. Although rental car companies sometimes try to do that, once they tried to claim me that Opel Mokka was equivalent to BMW 1-series. I strongly disagreed and in the end they gave me BMW X1 instead.

However, I previously owned a TEAC UD-503 with a different AKM chip and it did sound 'warmer' or more rolled-off in the upper midrange and treble than my other DACs at the time

I have TEAC NT-503 (I have also measured it of course). IIRC, it uses same AK4490 chip as first generation of ADI-2 Pro's (that I have two). To me both sound similar but not exactly same when running with same DSD256 input in DSD Direct mode (TEAC is always in DSD Direct mode).

But overall, if we compare chips with their modulator in play PCM inputs. AKM is less smooth and rounded off than TI chips, being more in the middle in this respect, Wolfson (now owned by Cirrus) is also similar. ESS has it's typical "on your face" flavor, with some hardness, more like Cirrus Logic. What I've heard, lot of people share similar experiences.

It doesn't show up in measurements under static signal conditions, so no point in looking for the reasons there.

 

[kiyu]

120dB is infinitisemally small, it's cited as a "hard" audible limit, if both the discrete and non-discrete measure in distortion and noise levels that low, they will sound the same, there is no magic dust to somehow give it a sound of its own still.

so all will sound the same because they all reach 120? 100% the same... whooaa really?
wondering if Smsl SU 8s reach 120db why do they continue creating other products if they according to you all sound the same...

I am sorry but I completely disagree with you, yeah they are NOiSE free YES, No distortion, super clean etc, but that doesn't mean they reproduce the same sound, same timber for the voice same bass,etc , they could be similar yes,, hard to differentiate ok yes, but definitely not the same.. at least that's my opinion.

I Guess life is easy for you just pick up the cheapest that reach 120db and you are done.
I feel bad for the engeenier that did Gustard x26 pro

all that in vane because smsl su8s or Topping e50 sound the same, because both have 120db... really ??

Sometimes I can't believe this forum... or I am really bad at reading English.. I guess that it..

 

[BDWoody]

Just moved a few more into this thread...

 

[GiFi]

in my humble opinion there will always be a diversity of behavior with an input musical flow but I repeat perhaps we need to define well the limits of the comparisons

 

[GiFi]

Thanks

 

[SIY]

On my wedding night, we went to see and meet Penn & Teller (my wife and Teller correspond semi-regularly). There were probably 2,000 of us in the theater. We saw a bowl of pennies turn into a bowl of goldfish with just a flick of Teller's hand.

Could all 2,000 of us be wrong and deluded? I think not.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

View attachment 180236
so all will sound the same because they all reach 120? 100% the same... whooaa really?
wondering if Smsl SU 8s reach 120db why do they continue creating other products if they according to you all sound the same...

I am sorry but I completely disagree with you, yeah they are NOiSE free YES, No distortion, super clean etc, but that doesn't mean they reproduce the same sound, same timber for the voice same bass,etc , they could be similar yes,, hard to differentiate ok yes, but definitely not the same.. at least that's my opinion.

I Guess life is easy for you just pick up the cheapest that reach 120db and you are done.
I feel bad for the engeenier that did Gustard x26 pro
View attachment 180238

all that in vane because smsl su8s or Topping e50 sound the same, because both have 120db... really ??

Sometimes I can't believe this forum... or I am really bad at reading English.. I guess that it..

no, not because they both have 120db sinad. Because they both have 120db SINAD (or even just 90db SINAD), as well as a completely flat (aka, transparent, neutral, whatever) frequency response, and no other measurable differences. How could two things that have flat frequency response produce different "voice timbre?" What would account for the difference? Oh wait...magic unobtanium. I forgot.

 

[voodooless]

wondering if Smsl SU 8s reach 120db why do they continue creating other products if they according to you all sound the same...

Because you and many others don’t believe it despite the overwhelming evidence.

Sometimes I can't believe this forum... or I am really bad at reading English.. I guess that it..

I can’t believe people refuse to do a controlled test

 

[GiFi]

But actually 120db Sinad DACs with flat linear responses sound different. I ask as an inexperienced person: why? that is, where do they differ in terms of measures?

 

[tubesguy]

On my wedding night, we went to see and meet Penn & Teller (my wife and Teller correspond semi-regularly). There were probably 2,000 of us in the theater. We saw a bowl of pennies turn into a bowl of goldfish with just a flick of Teller's hand.

Could all 2,000 of us be wrong and deluded? I think not.

Does he talk to her, or do they just text and email?

 

[SIY]

Does he talk to her, or do they just text and email?

DM and email except when we go to their shows, then hugs and kisses. Last time was in Milwaukee.

 

[frullo]

Ma in realtà i DAC Sinad da 120db risposte con lineari piatte suonano in modo diverso. Chiedo da persona inesperta: perché? cioè, dove differiscono in termini di misura?

 

[frullo]

Are 7/8 measures enough to define a sound produced by a device? I think not.
Are there types of measures that are more significant than others and less orthodox than the majority of the measures we see published? I mean: types of measurements that give designers an advantage and therefore are not willingly published and disseminated?

 

[SIY]

Are 7/8 measures enough to define a sound produced by a device? I think not.
Are there types of measures that are more significant than others and less orthodox than the majority of the measures we see published? I mean: types of measurements that give designers an advantage and therefore are not willingly published and disseminated?

For electronics? No. Their measurement is simple and straightforward.

 

[frullo]

For electronics? No. Their measurement is simple and straightforward.

Uhm

 

[BDWoody]

I mean: types of measurements that give designers an advantage and therefore are not willingly published and disseminated?

We've got quite a few of them about the place...(including the member you just 'uhm'd) there doesn't seem to be a 'secret recipe' aspect to it.

How well do you understand the measurements that are typically done?

Where do you get 7/8 from?

 

[Killingbeans]

so all will sound the same because they all reach 120? 100% the same... whooaa really?

-120dB = 0.0001% of the reference signal. That means 1/1000000 of the audio signal is something that isn't supposed to be there.

If I was betting money on whether less than a millionth of the signal results in a distinct signature or it's just placebo, It would be nuts of me to put them on the former.

 

[Miska]

Hmmh yeah, maybe Topping D90SE measures nice here, but, it depends how you look at things.

I did run some measurements too.

OK, that looked decent, let's see how it looks like with -60 dBFS input:

OK, WTF is going on here? Let's try the same -60 dBFS signal with 352.8k rate:

OK, better, but something is still wrong. How about DSD256 input:

Better still, but still some noise floor modulation issues.

If we then take a half price DAC with same test, same DAC chip:

Now that's better!

And we can even go to about 250€ PCIe card based on AKM chip:

So maybe choosing a DAC based on the SINAD chart is not the best thing to do. I wasted 900€, and the D90SE stays in the box. I had totally opposite experience with the ADI-2 for example. Maybe more thorough testing by the manufacturer?

 

[SIY]

Hmmh yeah, maybe Topping D90SE measures nice here, but, it depends how you look at things.

I did run some measurements too.



OK, that looked decent, let's see how it looks like with -60 dBFS input:
View attachment 180266

OK, WTF is going on here?

That looks like a measurement glitch. And some of this is compounded by changing the x axis, not to mention looking at nanovolt stuff outside of the <20kHz use range and trying to tie that to anything audibly meaningful.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Why do people keep throwing out this strawman about buying based on SINAD? Just because the stuff is laid out on a chart according to their SINAD that doesn't mean we're buying them because we think something with -120db sinad sounds better (or even different) from something with -110db sinad.