i completely agree with what you say, but i don't remember saying better. i think i said there is something there that i like
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Measurement of R2R DAC
- Thread starter Dialectic
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I see no fundamental incompatibility between the objective and subjective in audio and think it is a false dichotomy.
I value measurement and think that if talking about "better" then there is truth in measurement. I also think that obsessing about measurement becomes almost another form of subjectivism once you go beyond a certain level of measured performance.
I think that DBT or at least level matched blind testing is essential to establish whether you can even discern a difference between components let alone whether one is better than the other. I would bet money that the overwhelming majority of people would not be able to discern any difference between well implemented DACs or competently designed amplifiers used within their limits in a level matched blind test. Speakers and headphones are different.
So far so objective, but how many people buy audio gear without considering the industrial design, user interface, tactile feel, confidence in brand and after sales support etc? Or just like stuff and certain brands? I see nothing wrong with this provided people are honest about it and don't try and justify their choices with the sort of florid language used by subjective reviewers. Buying something less good than alternatives just because you like it is a perfectly reasonable decision, especially in audio where it is actually quite difficult to find stuff that is genuinely bad in terms of audible performance and where it is more a question of degrees of goodness IMO.
I value measurement and think that if talking about "better" then there is truth in measurement. I also think that obsessing about measurement becomes almost another form of subjectivism once you go beyond a certain level of measured performance.
I think that DBT or at least level matched blind testing is essential to establish whether you can even discern a difference between components let alone whether one is better than the other. I would bet money that the overwhelming majority of people would not be able to discern any difference between well implemented DACs or competently designed amplifiers used within their limits in a level matched blind test. Speakers and headphones are different.
So far so objective, but how many people buy audio gear without considering the industrial design, user interface, tactile feel, confidence in brand and after sales support etc? Or just like stuff and certain brands? I see nothing wrong with this provided people are honest about it and don't try and justify their choices with the sort of florid language used by subjective reviewers. Buying something less good than alternatives just because you like it is a perfectly reasonable decision, especially in audio where it is actually quite difficult to find stuff that is genuinely bad in terms of audible performance and where it is more a question of degrees of goodness IMO.
Yes, I think that whilst there is clear technical superiority to be demonstrated in many bits of audio hardware most of it is way beyond what is audible/necessary. Otherwise it would be inconceivable that anybody could consider LPs acceptable, never mind good, yet they do. The same could be said for reel-to-reel tape, it is a good step better than LP but way behind CD, both in noise, distortion and frequency response but there is a whole bunch of people paying even more ludicrously high prices for tapes than LPs, convinced of its superiority, which is demonstrably nowhere near technically but evidently good enough to convince loads of people it is better.
I suspect that it is a combination of the looks and the high price which convinces them but nobody would find them acceptable if 1.5% distortion and snr of -70dB was completely horrible sounding.
Dont' get me wrong, but what is the point and/or shared value in posting personal preference?
This x1,000,000. It's been my own little crusade to fight against the abuse of the meanings of these words in the tiny audio hobby niche. "Subjective" does NOT mean "totally uncontrolled," since in controlled listening, one uses a subjective judgement to determine the audibility of differences and/or preference. Call out "uncontrolled" for what it is, "uncontrolled" and hence worthless for determining audibility or sonic preference..
The point that i was trying to make was, the fact that i like it and other as well +all kind of articles that that sounded serious (to someone like me, who is no expert ) that maybe there is more to it, and since i like this forum i was asking what is Amirm nd the other knowledgeable member what they think. and i received from few member complete dismissal without reading the article on the ground that the article was written on a bias from or on the ground that r2r it crape. so I didn't feel that I was getting something that I can accept and understand. later on Amirm and some other took the time to explain the flaws in the article, and it helped me understand. to tell you the truth i still think there is something to explore there maybe in (44.1/48) rage where it actually can sound different (as solderdude said ). one thing is sure it is not as simple as some people claim it to be. and i value every bit of relevant data on the subject( my personal experience included
)The point that i was trying to make was, the fact that i like it and other as well +all kind of articles that that sounded serious (to someone like me, who is no expert ) that maybe there is more to it, and since i like this forum i was asking what is Amirm nd the other knowledgeable member what they think. and i received from few member complete dismissal without reading the article on the ground that the article was written on a bias from or on the ground that r2r it crape. so I didn't feel that I was getting something that I can accept and understand. later on Amirm and some other took the time to explain the flaws in the article, and it helped me understand. to tell you the truth i still think there is something to explore there maybe in (44.1/48) rage where it actually can sound different (as solderdude said ). one thing is sure it is not as simple as some people claim it to be. and i value every bit of relevant data on the subject( my personal experience included
Most folks here are for the facts, not for yours, or anybody others, personal preferences.
I don't know if you saw this on the top of every page in this forum so let me copy it for you :
"WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously."
Just refrain yourself from making statements like "so you say that r2r has nothing special? i am asking because i heard few devices that where amazing" and instead take your time to learn from other people's post and you'll keep people happy. Trust me, nobody hear wants to know about your perception of "amazing" sound. That is what people tried to tell you in their posts.
look, i maybe not an native to English, but i am pretty sure the form i wrote this was in a form of a question, an not in anyway as a statement?! 2. i was just asking to clarify if i understood amirm correctly. where i come from asking questions in forums is a good thing. and last but not least the question was not to you but to amirm, and he answered me nicely and have no problem with me or me with him, so i really don't understand how i offended you?
the Tento Hi-End portable R-2R should be not too expensive. i saw it used in excellent conditions on amazon.de for 220euro
https://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B00NOPAL16/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=usedista
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Seems like another filterless NOS device.
So a matter of taste not magic or technical excellence.
It can play square-waves quite well though.
So a matter of taste not magic or technical excellence.
It can play square-waves quite well though.
All depends on the equipment downstream (that actually provides the missing reconstruction filter functionality).
graz_lag
Major Contributor
220 EUR vs. 549 EUR brand new seems to be an excellent opportunity indeed, if one wants to get that type of rendering.
And the Made in Germany is worth something for sure on the device overall evaluation.
graz_lag
Major Contributor
Do not worry too much abt. the barking from @Krunok - he's a nice guy, he has started barking to anyone crossing his perimeter after they lost (the Croatians) the 2018's FIFA world cup ... It's understandable though, you have an one-time in a life appointment and you miss it.
Hi amirMaybe you should ask someone who really understands the science (unlike the author) read it for you and tell you all that is wrong there.
SNR measured over 1 second? Who says?
Switching is bad in delta-sigma? How about switching in R2R?
Dither doesn't work? Really? There are dozens of demos on Youtube showing how dither works wonderfully and your ear doesn't need "1 second averaging" to hear its benefits.
And who is the author? I searched for Lynn Olson everywhere. I can't find a bio. Do you know if he has proper signal processing experience? If not, why on earth do you trust what he says? Did you not note things like this?
View attachment 33356
Pay attention to the name of this forum: Audio Science Review. We have membership here who actually knows this topic and has practiced it. And you tell us to read something written for audiophiles to believe?
Don't put your guard down because you like the message. Pay attention to where something is published. And by whom. Above all, don't print a page from the Internet to show to your doctor to tell him you know more because you read that.
Back to your statement, our measurements aim to determine if a DAC does what it is supposed to do: convert digital samples faithfully to analog. That is all it is supposed to do, and all it can do. It doesn't know what music is. It doesn't know noise. It doesn't know anything. All it is given is a sequence of numbers to convert to analog. Our measurements feed it numbers and determines if what comes out of the other side are the same or different.
Furthermore, when we see deviations, we have detailed data in the form of spectrum we can use with psychoacoustics to determine audiblity. No hand waving here.
Last but not least, what you state is the latest talking point about R2R. It used to be that people were told that these are the most accurate DACs. Many people buy them because they think that is the case. To the extent our measurements show otherwise, we dismiss with that marketing myth.
You Told me to ask you back then, when I have a question of the matter, so I'm asking:
I love the sound signature of the dx3 pro and I remember you mentioning that you do too, and that you replaced it with the dx7 pro. I looking to buy a new device, but with all the new stuff I'm not sure what should I get. I was wondering if you could give a simple advice? I'm not looking to compromise about sound quality or signature, but i wouldn't mind to get the most future for my money (like MQA ect). I don't like the sound signature of the d50 So should i go with the dx7 pro, smsl 400, d90, GUSTARD DAC-A22? Or something else maybe?
Thank you for your time
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