Most bang for the buck. Combination amplifier speakers

[DanielT]

Fictional scenario. Two sets of speakers. Measures exactly the same except this:

Speaker 1. 88 dB (2.83 V, 1 m). Cost $ 1000

Speaker 2. 92 dB (2.83 V, 1 m). Cost $ 2000

You probably suspect what I'll get to now. Two different amplifiers. One costs $ 1,000 less than the other. Does that combination of cheaper amplifier speaker No. 2 provide better sound than the more expensive amplifier with speaker No. 1?

Since this is a fictitious example so if you feel for it set your own levels of sensitivity speakers, optional price speakers, etc. The fictitious I brought up can be seen as the starting point for a discussion.

 

[DanielT]

Speaking of what effect amplifiers need to have in relation to which speakers to play with.To spice it up even more. Take a pair of line speakers, see picture ,. Speaker with elements, Peerless tc9fd18-08. Sensitivity should reach around 98-100 dB.

https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/peerless/peerless-tc9fd18-08

Complete with some subwoofers, split the signal and let a class d amplifier power them upp to 80-120 Hz.

In this example, it would, or should it??, be enough to use a classic small NAD 3020 to power the line speakers in a sensible way?
It would actually be fun to have such a solution. If it worked, sounded good ie.

Edit:
I now see that the signal-to-noise ratio is not so very good for the NAD 3020. Apart from that, it would have been a fun vintage solution to play with.
I hope Amir tests a NAD 3020. The world's best-selling amplifier of all time. Would have been fun to read about it. Even though it may not (or?) be an amplifier that you have in your main system these days.

And yes I am aware that speakers with high sensitivity that also have low distortion and straight frequency response can be quite expensive so the price difference in my example above may not reflect reality, but for the sake of duskussion so ..

This thread is a general variation on the more specific issue in rubins thread (which I, incidentally, follow with interest):

https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...tting-from-a-power-wattage-perspective.26367/

 

[MarkS]

Does that combination of cheaper amplifier speaker No. 2 provide better sound than the more expensive amplifier with speaker No. 1?

If both combos are operated below clipping, they would sound exactly the same.

 

[solderdude]

I hope Amir tests a NAD 3020.

What's wrong with these measurements https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-d-3020-integrated-amplifier-measurements

The answer to your hypothetical question is... no one knows.
The reason is the price of 2 different amplifiers have absolutely NO relation to their performance.

When you would have said: The amplifiers used perform the same but the one connected to speaker 1 is driven by an amplifier that has 4dB (2.5x) more output power then they could sound the same. (provided enough gain is present)

 

[antcollinet]

You are quoting two different sensitivities. You'll need to increase the power output of the amp aprox 2.5 times to compensate for 4dB.

All other things being equal, the sound quality will be identical.

 

[DanielT]

Hello to all of you, thank you for the response.

Let's say this. What% price difference is there between two different amplifiers. They are exactly the same except for the difference in power. Where one has 2.5 times more power than the other.Power and price. The correlation between price and performance in hifi is well in many cases maybe not so clear, if I express myself so.The hifi world is in many ways a bit of a weird world when it comes to pricing, I think.

But just power and price. Then there should be a connection. Larger transformers, larger heat sinks, etc. etc. it should be more expensive.

Is the 2.5 times more powerfull aplifier 2.5 times more expensive? Remember , they are exactly the same except for the difference in power.
How is the correlation effect price?

Edit:

I have recently resumed my hifi interest since my youth. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong now but what I, nowadays, understand, is that sound regarding hifi can actually be described with three factors:
Frequency
Distortion (and noise)
And so along with that spread in terms of speakers.

This leads to, if I give a fictitious example, if I have 10000 $ and want to spend these on a hifi solution, then I can buy a DAC Topping E30 (it is linear and seems to have THD + N below the audible, more expensive DAC is thus a complete waste of money to invest in). Amplifier, let's take the one that seems to be popular here on the forum Aiyiama TPA 3255 with the most powerful power supply that fits it. Total so far, around $ 400. Then you get the remaining 9600 $. They spent on the speakers. Since the distortion is summed up in the chain and the component that undeniably contributes the most with the distortion are the speakers. Speakers for 9600 $ there should at least the chances of finding some with fairly low distortion and straight frequency response be quite good. My guess.

I ignore functionality in the example above.

 

[DanielT]

What's wrong with these measurements https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-d-3020-integrated-amplifier-measurements

The answer to your hypothetical question is... no one knows.
The reason is the price of 2 different amplifiers have absolutely NO relation to their performance.

When you would have said: The amplifiers used perform the same but the one connected to speaker 1 is driven by an amplifier that has 4dB (2.5x) more output power then they could sound the same. (provided enough gain is present)

Hi, well not D 3020 but this NAD 3020:

 

[solderdude]

my bad...

The thermal runaway amp.. I can't remember how many output transistors I have replaced in those things. These designs lack Emitter resistors and in a lot of cases when people overload the output the transistors blew up.
It is a low power amp without the power-envelope construction NAD became famous for later on.
The 220 ohm output R (normal in those days) made some headphones sound overly bassy which some folks liked.

 

[DanielT]

I bought a NAD 3020 this summer. I was curious how it would sound. Not so bad, on the contrary nice I thought. Used it in a small room in the summer cottage. It paired with a pair of JPW P1 (refomed elements) speakers that I bought from the same person. Sounded, sounds perfectly ok in my ears. I'm thinking of getting my old turntable up and running, mostly for fun, and using it together with NAD and JPW P1 in the cabin in the future.

Speaking of effect. Also bought this one this summer with: Fostex 600

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/fostex/600.shtml

It was in quite a scratched condition, on the surface, ie. Have fixed it now. Got it for hardly any money at all. It works. My friend who is trained in electronics and has been working with amplifiers for many years will recap it and my NAD 3020 this autumn / winter.

 

[Willem]

For someone who has come back to audio after a long time, the biggest surprise should be that transparent electronics are now so cheap, even though they have gone up somewhat in the last year and a half. A basic 2x85 watt Yamaha AS501 integrated amplifier that has both analogue and digital inputs costs about 450 euros (and was 350 two years ago) and is powerful enough for a serious system in a small to medium room. I even tried one in a large room driving ineffecient Harbeth P3ESR speakers, and it sounded completely neutral and transparent up to levels that I dared to expose the litle speakers to. It was completely indistiguishable from the much more expensive amplifier that I normally use in that room. For more power, I bought a 2x250 Yamaha P2500S power amplifier for 300 euros for my son a few years ago, and again, it is completely transparent. Watts are cheap, and so are DACs. So the lesson is: do not fall for the allure of audiophile electronics, and spend the budget on speakers. Since watts are so cheap, do not worry about speaker inefficiency, unless your room is very large (and even then).
Of course, one should not go overboard with cheap electronics. In my view the cheaper Yamaha amplifiers are as cheap as one should go. Stuff below that price bracket is either unreliable, measures badly, or both. Buying twenty year old (or older) second hand gear only makes sense for what at the time was well made top quality gear, because even a cheap vintage amplifiers will almost always need to be recapped. Unless you can do that yourself, vintage budget gear makes no economic sense. A 200 euro Yamaha AS201 would be a better bet.

 

[DanielT]

Interesting.Good tips!

Then I will probably just point it out to everyone the obvious what has happened in the last 30-35 years. Does not only apply to Hifi. The development of computers and the internet.

Had someone for me 30 years ago told me and insisted that in the near future there will be a so called Internet and there you can get access to basically all music you can think of, to the highest quality of the sound, for 10 $ (around) a month. Unlimited listening. Well then, I would have called the psychiatric clinica and asked thos men with white coats to come and get him.

Old amplifiers. Capacitors that have to be replaced, relays that are fu..d up, solders that have been released, etc. Then you should probably have vintage as a hobby and be able to repair and replace parts. Nothing stranger than old vintage cars, vintage boats or anything old mechanical, electronic. Can be fun, but it can be a lot to do with repairs.

Now I came to think of what one of the old men said at the boat club. He has a nice old wooden boat in really nice condition. He replaces parts, paints layer upon layer. It looks really nice. Well this is what he said when it was time to put the boat in the lake for the season:

"Well, now the season was over for me."

He must have said it inonically. Or maybe he meant it. What do I know.

For my own part, I like to go boating .... and also to play music with my amplifier.

Edit:
By the way, a friend who is a little older than me is now retired. He used to listen to a lot of music in the past, but now he only does vintage hi-fi repairs in his spare time. He does not listen to music at all anymore. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone can be happy in their own way.

 

[DanielT]

my bad...

The thermal runaway amp.. I can't remember how many output transistors I have replaced in those things. These designs lack Emitter resistors and in a lot of cases when people overload the output the transistors blew up.
It is a low power amp without the power-envelope construction NAD became famous for later on.
The 220 ohm output R (normal in those days) made some headphones sound overly bassy which some folks liked.

Hi Solderdude. Thanks for information and the tip.

Regarding soldering see my post above.

 

[tomtoo]

40 years ago, at least in germany we had that saying, spend more for the speakers than the rest of your electronic. And we needet a lot of electronic with TT and tapedecks. From my point of view, its even more true today. The speakers are the most importend part for your sound.

 

[PierreV]

In my most used system, speakers account for 0,93626215340295 of the total system cost (based on list price)
It used to be 0,94909404659189 but I use the more expensive speakers in another system these days .

 

[DanielT]

Something does not seem to have changed. It was also a mantra we as teenagers, back in the stoneage, became imprinted. Put the gunpowder on the speakers.

One more thing, which you should think about if you are thinking of vintage amplifiers do not forget to check if it is humming from the transformer. Can be really annoying. Of course the transformer hums in my old NAD 3020. I tried to screw the transformer into the chassis with extra screws between the chassis and the transformer. Rubber plates between chassis and transformer. It helped, a little. Luckily, my friend that will recap it has a suitable ring core transformer for NAD 3020. With the right primary and secondary voltage.

NAD 3020 is nice. It will remain a summer cottage amplifier.

Another thing that facilitates the acquisition of hifi nowadays is that the wallet is slightly thicker than when I was a teenager.
On the other hand, I do not hear higher frequencies as well now as then.

Hmm .... heard then could not afford. Can afford now do not hear.

 

[tomtoo]

Something does not seem to have changed. It was also a mantra we as teenagers, back in the stoneage, became imprinted. Put the gunpowder on the speakers.

One more thing, which you should think about if you are thinking of vintage amplifiers do not forget to check if it is humming from the transformer. Can be really annoying. Of course the transformer hums in my old NAD 3020. I tried to screw the transformer into the chassis with extra screws between the chassis and the transformer. Rubber plates between chassis and transformer. It helped, a little. Luckily, my friend that will recap it has a suitable ring core transformer for NAD 3020. With the right primary and secondary voltage.

NAD 3020 is nice. It will remain a summer cottage amplifier.

Another thing that facilitates the acquisition of hifi nowadays is that the wallet is slightly thicker than when I was a teenager.
On the other hand, I do not hear higher frequencies as well now as then.

Hmm .... heard then could not afford. Can afford now do not hear.

The strange thing with that high frequency hearing is, when i was 16 i liked a lot of them. Now 40 years later i enjoy them more a littel restricted. It should be the way around, but it is not. Very strange,

 

[DanielT]

It seems to have progressed in finding affordable amplifiers, not to mention these high-performance modern inexpensive DACs, such as the Topping E30, Boss Allo 2 (which is also a streamer) just to name two.

BUT on this front it has it gone in the wrong direction Why even care about the effect if you play the evenly thick porridge. The only small advantage is that this type of music does not make any demands that the amplifier needs so much effect.

Precisely for that reason I still also use a CD player. To find old uncompressed CDs at flea markets, for example.

Edit
In addition, looking for CDs at flea markets is fun. I feel a bit like an archaeologist .Maybe not as much action as Indiana Jones but sometimes you come across something fun, see picture:

 

[DanielT]

The strange thing with that high frequency hearing is, when i was 16 i liked a lot of them. Now 40 years later i enjoy them more a littel restricted. It should be the way around, but it is not. Very strange,

I guess I should not be too ironical, just a little. You kind of have no choice.

Not hearing the highest frequency is not something that worries me, not really.

 

[tomtoo]

I guess I should not be too ironical, just a little. You kind of have no choice.

Not hearing the highest frequency is not something that worries me, not really.

Irony is no problem. A littel bit of selfirony is a good replacement for a psychiatrist . And much cheaper.

 

[Kegemusha]

Bang for the money? Just but a Hypex Ncore NC122MP amp and all will be ok whith the 2 sets of speakers.
You will also have money over for somenthing else.