Need a New DAW / Streamer PC

[Deleted member 65]

Hi Ron. I did some searching but could not find a better choice. The one I built cost around this much and given the fact that it was fanless, it was a difficult build. If you get this one, upgrade it to i5 for the extra $100. You don't need it for music playback but can come in handy if you do room EQ, DSD to PCM conversion, etc.

I will post if I find something better.

There's my Coffe Lake i7 8700 SilentPC I built in another thread as alternative, not very good pictures I'm afraid. Works really good as Roon endpoint even though it's overkill for these duties.

 

[March Audio]

Sorry I carried the thread off topic. I thought someone coming from a Mac and getting Windows might want to know some of the pitfalls. So it was not horribly off topic and didn't intend to start an OS war.

Anyone have any input on running Roon on a capable NAS? That seems like it could be a good alternative.

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS

Yes. it ran just fine on my Synology DS1815+ (Intel Atom C2538 @ 2.4GHz) . Not quite as responsive as my i7 quad core laptop which is running it now, but really no complaints. Rock solid.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Looks like Roon has released its own hardware: https://www.paragonsns.com/product/roon-nucleus/

 

[Purité Audio]

Both versions should be here soon, hopefully!
Keith

 

[Jinjuku]

Sorry I carried the thread off topic. I thought someone coming from a Mac and getting Windows might want to know some of the pitfalls. So it was not horribly off topic and didn't intend to start an OS war.

I'm into solving issues.

Problem: I find Windows Updates, Defender Updates, item c, item d to be a hindrance to my adopting it as a platform, but Macs are too expensive, and I'm not sure about Linux because there's some software that I need that isn't on that platform.

Possible solution: Hey, I know what you are talking about. Spend a little money for Windows 10 Pro and I can send you a small file that will import into what is called the local machine policy editor and take care of that.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I'm into solving issues.

Problem: I find Windows Updates, Defender Updates, item c, item d to be a hindrance to my adopting it as a platform, but Macs are too expensive, and I'm not sure about Linux because there's some software that I need that isn't on that platform.

Possible solution: Hey, I know what you are talking about. Spend a little money for Windows 10 Pro and I can send you a small file that will import into what is called the local machine policy editor and take care of that.

I agree with you, and still OT. But, I have adequately solved my problems by sticking with Win7 Pro 64 on my media PC and not being tempted by Win 10, which I have on my non-media, general purpose PC. I still do not like Win 10, and I think Win7, still supported, seems to require fewer major updates.

I also learned to set Win7 to download updates but not automatically apply them unless I say so manually. So, if I am ready to sit down and listen to music and Win has updates it wants to apply, I do all my listening first, then when done for the night, I let Win apply the updates overnight.

I also got frustrated by AMD GPU driver updates royally screwing up my settings and having had to revert. So, I ignore those updates, at my own risk of course. But, no major problems so far.

These two software components have been most troublesome. My Webroot antivirus has been updating itself quite transparently and unobtrusively - bravo! There is not much other software on my media machine requiring updating. Only JRiver has frequent updates, but, again, I do not allow JRiver updates to be automatic. I update those manually when I want to, not when they want to. Dirac Live and my Exasound DAC driver have had no updates for a very long time, and they would be applied only under my control. My AnyDVD HD Blu-Ray decrypter and Java pop up occasionally for updates, but, again, I initiate those updates manually on my schedule.

Occasionally, I will plan to do a hygiene session on the PC outside my normal listening time to apply one or more updates. I often sequence them so as to have only one restart reboot for multiple updates if the updates require a restart. I do the Win updates last in sequence. Live and learn, I guess. But, my system software is quite up to date and seldom interferes with my listening sessions.

I also do not use my media PC much for web browsing or email. So, knock, knock, I have no malware issues I am aware of.

 

[Ron Party]

Hi Ron. I did some searching but could not find a better choice. The one I built cost around this much and given the fact that it was fanless, it was a difficult build. If you get this one, upgrade it to i5 for the extra $100. You don't need it for music playback but can come in handy if you do room EQ, DSD to PCM conversion, etc.

I will post if I find something better.

Hi Amir. Am I correctly understanding you that the i5-8400 is the way to go versus the i5-8600K (let alone the i7 incarnations)? What about RAM: 8G vs. 16G and Kingston vs. Corsair?

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Hi Amir. Am I correctly understanding you that the i5-8400 is the way to go versus the i5-8600K (let alone the i7 incarnations)? What about RAM: 8G vs. 16G and Kingston vs. Corsair?

I have trouble understanding how or why different CPU or RAM chips would make much difference, as long as they have sufficient horsepower and the price is right. But, if Amir wants to do some testing, that might be interesting, as long as a Schiit DAC is not used.

I know Chris Connaker got started this way, and Baetis claims super special, tweaky audio builds. Yes, quiet PCs have some very special considerations about heat and power consumption. But, for normal USB out to a decent, isolated DAC, I think there may be more placebo-driven mythology than not about PC internals and their sonic effects. Bit perfection is provable, and jitter has become a non-issue with asynch USB. EMI/RFI noise? It's the DAC's job to isolate from that.

My cheap, custom build tower is years old now - I7, 16GB RAM, Intel motherboard, 500w SMPS, AMD GPU. Noisy fans and disc drives, yes, but it is in the next room, so no problem. Probably overkill. But, it sounds great to me and it looks great with video, too. I have also started up numerous simultaneous high resource batch files while listening to music. Absolutely no sonic difference I could hear. Normally, just with music with a lot of DSP going on, resource consumption is pretty small.

 

[Ron Party]

My computer will live in the same room and, as such, fan noise is a concern. And while I would prefer to send audio to my SSP via USB, it very well may be the case that it will go via HDMI. In either case, there will be no stand alone DAC or IIRC something like you use, namely the Exasound. The SSP will (hopefully) be next year's purchase and will be either Theta, Datasat or Trinnov.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

My computer will live in the same room and, as such, fan noise is a concern. And while I would prefer to send audio to my SSP via USB, it very well may be the case that it will go via HDMI. In either case, there will be no stand alone DAC or IIRC something like you use, namely the Exasound. The SSP will (hopefully) be next year's purchase and will be either Theta, Datasat or Trinnov.

Understood, Ron. And, best of luck on your processor choice. You probably cannot go wrong on any of those. I assume you might be leaning in a possible Auro/Atmos direction in future.

Yup. I am glad I did not have to worry about fan noise. It is much cheaper and easier when you do not have to.

I don't know if this is still a valid tip. I used HDMI for a time into an Integra prepro. When I started with PC audio, I discovered several things about HDMI. First, in the PC, HDMI is owned by the video processor/GPU with audio as an afterthought. I wanted to be able to send audio at 44,48,88,96,176,and 192. I found that Intel Integrated graphics and AMD supported all those, but NVidia did not support 88 and 176. It's a shame, because their video is great. Sonically, it may be no big deal, but I went AMD for that reason and, anecdotally, I thought it a small but noticeable improvement over Intel Integrated Graphics. An NVidia card I tried had not sounded as good playing 88k material at 96k. A sample size of one anecdotal problem, perhaps.

Kal keeps lamenting that prepros, etc. may have USB inputs, but they have tended to be stereo only rather than Mch. So, HDMI still reigns for Mch into prepros, even for just music.

 

[amirm]

Did so, received new firmware which bricked the unit. No response from them after this.

Ouch! Sorry about any role I played in that.

 

[amirm]

Hi Amir. Am I correctly understanding you that the i5-8400 is the way to go versus the i5-8600K (let alone the i7 incarnations)? What about RAM: 8G vs. 16G and Kingston vs. Corsair?

Hi Ron. i5-8400 would be just fine. The only CPU heavy application I have seen in my system is DSD to PCM conversion (my current DAC is PCM only). My older i5 system is just able to play it with a rare hiccup. While I don't use it, HQPlayer conversion to DSD is very CPU heavy but there is little reason to go there. The benefit of a slower CPU is that it runs cooler, is more reliable as a result, and easier to keep quiet.

For memory, 8 Gigabytes is fine but in this day and age, I get 16 just to be done with it. Apps keep getting more and more bloated and the extra memory allows for caching NAS/disk content into memory for faster searches and glitch-free playback. It also allows dual channel access if you go with dual 8 gig cards. It is only a small improvement but might as well. But again, if cost saving is an issue, 8 gigabytes is just fine.

Memory speed does not matter at all. That is for gamers to fight about. I would go with good brand, two of which you have listed. I would buy whichever is on sale.

By the way, a customer wanted a duplicate of my fanless PC. I provided the parts list and a local computer shot put one together at even better price than I did! It was turnkey. So you may want to seek out these stores. I am sure there are plenty in bay area.

 

[Deleted member 65]

Ouch! Sorry about any role I played in that.

No Amir, you didn't play any role in this. Searching the web I'm not alone with this particular incident on this unit. Oh well, moved on with other DAC's even though it was a nice sounding desktop unit.

 

[Deleted member 65]

Ron, here's another take on building a SilentPC differing a bit from Amir's approach.

I've taken the same approach as when I've been building Netbanks (Private & Corporate) since the 90's.

The infrastructure should be able to handle whatever peaks that may occur. In the case of a SilentPC it should be futureproof being able to serve me for at least >5 years and cope with whatever demanding new technology that may come up i.e. peaks (PCM to DSD conversion, DSP, EQ, 4K video ... aso).

Over the years in the IT Banking/Finance industry I've learnt that spending some considerable amount in the initial infrastructure investment pays off in the long run.

My build of a SilentPC to serve as Roon Endpoint/Core, 4K Video (Netflix):

Chassies:
Since Amir had already built a SilentPC I needed to find another option. This is what I found and it's very good, on par with Amir's choice I think.

PSU:
No fan so I decided on the HD-Plex fanless SMPS.

Motherboard:

Support for the Intel Z370 and M.2 NVME/SSD storage as well as Intels new CPU's i8xxx with inbuilt 4K video support. Since I have good experience of Asus I decided on them and also needed onboard WiFi, this is what I ended up with. Also went for a middle tier gaming motherboard since that's where the best technology initially shows up.

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-E-GAMING/

CPU:

A believer in buying the next to best so I decided to buy the new Coffee Lake Intel Core i7 8700 (TDP 65w) instead of the i7 8700K (TDP 95w). Don't intend to overclock and the graphics capabilities are the same between the two.

Storage & Memory:

Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVME for OS and apps. Room on motherboard for one more M.2 if needed & SSD's.
16GB Memory.


Was not a Build on a budget short term, think it is long term ...


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ge-server-build-on-a-budget-thread.722/page-3

and my build has no fans, think Amir has one fan in his (PSU) ... ;-)

 

[amirm]

and my build has no fans, think Amir has one fan in his (PSU) ... ;-)

Nice write up. But no, my power supply has no fan. It is passively cooled on the other side of the case using that heatsink (CPU uses the other one). See: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...irs-music-server-build-thread.415/#post-10666

 

[Deleted member 65]

Nice write up. But no, my power supply has no fan. It is passively cooled on the other side of the case using that heatsink (CPU uses the other one). See: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...irs-music-server-build-thread.415/#post-10666

Sorry ... it's possible to use Amir's PSU in my build as well.

 

[watchnerd]

This seems to have some serious fans / ducting. Wonder how audible it is?

 

[Jinjuku]

If you are doing straight PCM playback, even with convolution, Get one of the Intel i5 based NUC's for $390.

Add 8GB RAM for $75

Add a 2.5" SSD as there is a good cost savings and M.2 isn't going to actually net you anything performance wise.

M.2 is faster for file transfer and IOPS but all the reports that are in about OS boot times and Application launch and general UI responsiveness show that M.2 doesn't benefit at all.

Now if we are running MS SQL then the IOPS that M.2 offers is clearly of value. With M.2 NMVe, for consumer use, it's a cost without benefit.

 

[amirm]

Are they fanless?

 

[Jinjuku]

Are they fanless?

Sure are... And it's an Intel product

Been using the J3455 (Celeron version) of these with SSD's and 8GB RAM and Windows 10 Pro. They just fly for general usage.

The J3455 is $129. Add 120GB SSD for $50, 8GB for $75, Win10Pro for $68.

For for $320 use JRemote with Jriver or Roon and their remote.

Depending on your budget just get 4 or 8 tb of network attached storage. For $299 you can get Western Digitals 8TB Cloud NAS.

For $100 you could get a killer WAP and just do away with any physical connection.

I would put up this setup against any multi-thousand $$ streamer any day of the week. With the money saved you can just get that much better of a DAC.