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Need Power amplifier Recomendations 1000.00 or less 500 watt minimum @4ohm.

Dialectic

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@DonH56 You are right! I have owned DC300's before - LOL! Sorry, I was responding in the wrong thread, I thought this one was the which $500 amps to test. I was giving @amirm a hard time for not testing this amp already and putting to bed the zillion posts on why these Crown XLS amps suck ... or not... :)

The XLS amps has easy switching between consumer and pro levels, balanced or unbalanced operation, a fan that I have never heard turn on, even when the amp is abused for hours... Wrt to trigger, it is still a pain, but possible...

Does Amir have equipment for testing power amps? I thought his AP unit was limited to testing low-level signals.
 

Jinjuku

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Hey Mitch,

I agree with you (natch), that's why I asked. Bet we both had DC300's at one point as they were they only reliable high-power amp around for a while... ;) I had a Phase Linear 700 (first generation) for a while; I sold it after repairing it the third time it blew up and took out a speaker.

When a Crown has fallen down in a consumer system IME it has been due to level mismatch (pro vs. consumer levels) leading to noise with high-sensitivity speakers. And of course you have to deal with their pro-type turn-on vs. the consumer trigger voltage mismatch (or manually power cycle them, like most of us did for decades). They have amps now that deal with the level issue, not sure about trigger circuits (they'd have to decide if the expense was worth it for the sales potential). I think they should do like some other companies and add the trigger circuit, bump the gain for consumer input levels, wrap it in consumer-looking sheetmetal, and sell it for 2x the price. Or maybe 10x to be more in line with other audiophile amplifiers...

My first serious setup was Crown DC300A, DC150, IC150A, OC150A. I was 15 and found them in the classifieds of someone that was moving into a house and wanted it gone. $400 for everything in 1987 and had a buddy drive me.

I built a pair of Karlson horns and added some tweeters and bi-amped. I ran with that heavy as heck stack for 7 years. Got tired of moving it. Made money on selling it and then into a series of mistakes: Carver, Adcom, Parasound. The Carver sounded thin, the Adcom was solid, the Parasound had audible noise when no program material was playing. Now I'm back to Crown.

The 1502 has a 12v trigger! Has .775 consumer and 2v XLS inputs. It meets all the critical needs IMO. I love mine. Simply transparent and gets out of the way of the material.
 

Sal1950

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My first serious setup was Crown DC300A, DC150, IC150A, OC150A. I was 15 and found them in the classifieds of someone that was moving into a house and wanted it gone. $400 for everything in 1987 and had a buddy drive me.

I built a pair of Karlson horns and added some tweeters and bi-amped. I ran with that heavy as heck stack for 7 years.
I imagine that rig could majorly ROCK. ;)
 

Jinjuku

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I imagine that rig could majorly ROCK. ;)

With that I didn't need to drive for 5 years since I had plenty of people willing to get me where I needed to go just so I could do the house parties.
 

Sal1950

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With that I didn't need to drive for 5 years since I had plenty of people willing to get me where I needed to go just so I could do the house parties.

Around 1987 this rig was driving my Klipsch La Scalas. ;)

PhaseLinear.jpg
 

jhaider

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Don, from my perspective, the Crown XLS DriveCore 2 series is a steal. And does get very good reviews: https://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLS1502-Two-channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B011X2HTZC#customerReviews I use this amp in a triamp setup from 40 Hz to 630 Hz to drive JBL double 15" 4 ohm cabs with high efficiency woofers. Granted I have not used the amp in a full range setup, but as one can see from the Amazon reviews, many folks are using this amp in consumer setups with great results.

For $399, I would suggest this amp (and the XLS series) is real bargain. However, some folks feel tbat it can't possibly sound good at that price point. That's why I would love to see @amirm measure one of these bad boys to see if it is the real deal or not. Until then, it seems to be all speculation...

I'm curious, are you or anyone else reading this aware of any frequency response measurements for the XLS or other Harman DriveCore amps? I'm thinking either FR into a simulated speaker load, or a difference measurement between the DriveCore and a known low impedance Class AB amp.

If not, I should really do it. I'm a little embarrassed that I haven't. I don't have an XLS, but do have a couple "DriveCore" Class D amps: Crown DCI-n and Lexicon DD8. I have never tested them.

And of course you have to deal with their pro-type turn-on vs. the consumer trigger voltage mismatch (or manually power cycle them, like most of us did for decades). They have amps now that deal with the level issue, not sure about trigger circuits (they'd have to decide if the expense was worth it for the sales potential).

Several companies sell power management products with 12V trigger controlled outlets. I have one from Panamax that has 4 outlets switched by a standard 12V home audio trigger and 4 always-on outlets. It was a lot cheaper to buy that and pro amps than a "hifi" amp with similar power and built in triggers! Also pro amps usually have the advantage of level controls for each channel.
 

mitchco

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@jhaider - no, I have searched and found a few tests to confirm max output on AVSforum, but no frequency response or wide band distortion measurements. It would be awesome if you could measure... My conspiracy theory is that no-one wants to know how good Crown DriveCore series measure/sound, as Harman would not be able to sell any ML amps after that ;)
 

Jinjuku

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I believe the XLS is down .5 dB at 19Khz and has a 6dB / octave roll off at 20Hz
 

DonH56

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Nor I, sorry. Have not really looked for them. A little surprised as they are very popular among the DIY crowd.

Note Mitch said they have changed the latest versions to include a consumer trigger input and gain structure (switchable, I believe).
 

amirm

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Does Amir have equipment for testing power amps? I thought his AP unit was limited to testing low-level signals.
The AP can handle up to 178 volt input (RMS). That means it can measure almost 4,000 watts at 8 ohm and 8000 watts in 4 ohm! So it is not the limitation at all.

The dummy loads would be an issue just this minute as I think the ones that I have go to a few hundred watts.

The main limitation is measuring class-D amps as their high frequency noise can cause problems. I plan to build a passive filter for it (AP charges some $1,500 for theirs!). Until then, measuring them accurately may be a problem.
 

DonH56

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jhaider

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@jhaider - no, I have searched and found a few tests to confirm max output on AVSforum, but no frequency response or wide band distortion measurements. It would be awesome if you could measure...

I'm not really equipped to measure electronics. All I really care about here is whether the output filter messes up treble response anyway. What I would do is measure is a couple speakers with different impedance characteristics, powered both by the DriveCore amp and a control Class AB amp (depending on where I was doing the measurements, either an ATI AT4007 or a Parasound Zamp mk3). Then chart the difference in response (if any).

Does that make sense?

I was planning on doing such measurements for an upcoming review of an amplifier based on a Pascal module anyway, so throwing in the Lexicon DD8 would not be that much more work. Crown DCI8|600n would be more work, because it would have to be done outdoors to avoid corruption from fan noise.
 

jhaider

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The 1502 has a 12v trigger!

It does? The manual Don linked to says that it has a contact closure. Isn't that a little more involved? My memory is hazy, but I interpret that to mean it needs some sort of additional relay to turn on or off from consumer gear.
 

Sal1950

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I found this an interesting sales article, might upset a few people here.
Written by a gentleman named Duncan Taylor, my technical expertise is out for lunch, but he does say a few things that ring home with me.
A sales speel is involved but -------------------------------

"Depth. That’s what you get with a good A/B amp that you just can’t quite touch with even the most excellent Class D.

Sorry, it’s the truth. Most Class A/B amps on most loads at most volumes stay in Class A anyway, and there’s no contest.

Sure, you can optimize the path of the power to your Class D monoblocks, use isolation bases to minimize vibration, place Shakti Stones or other EMI/RFI filters over the PCBs, put on your voodoo suit and hail the demon gods of audio to deliver Nirvana.

Or you can plug in a high quality A/B amp and never look back.

That pesky switching frequency and the usual harmonics of Class D just end up getting in the way of the sheer magic that is possible with the world’s best A/Bs.

Even if you eliminate the upper harmonics and create a harmonic structure similar to tube amps, as PS Audio does with the Stellar S300 amplifier I use for testing, you can’t quite match the subtle details an A/B brings that make up perceived depth in a soundstage representation.

Amp designers will say most tube amps offer more positive and negative second order harmonic distortion — low order as opposed to the high order of Class Ds. Sense of depth is connected to a touch of second order, but that’s not the whole story.

Signal purity, phase correctness, wide bandwidth at full power — these are other hallmarks of an amp that will expand the sound to the back walls and beyond."



https://tmraudio.blogspot.com/2018/...173644581&mc_cid=892d6c251b&mc_eid=04329ee09d
 

amirm

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"Depth. That’s what you get with a good A/B amp that you just can’t quite touch with even the most excellent Class D.
He is pretty confused. Nothing about a class D impacts the depth.

What class D does is impressive bass response due to high efficiency and lots of power.
 

Blumlein 88

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What class D does with my power hungry Soundlabs is grab them by the collar, b*tch slap them a couple times and drive them with control, impact and good sound in a way no other amp has come close to. Closest were a pair of bridged Classe 25s which are a kilowatt per channel with real current capability behind it.

Here is the inside of one Classe 25. 68 lbs each I think they were.
1304766-classe-audio-dr25-power-amplifier-excellent.jpg


This the replacement which is about 20 lbs and I only need one of them.

open_big.jpg
 

svart-hvitt

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He is pretty confused. Nothing about a class D impacts the depth.

What class D does is impressive bass response due to high efficiency and lots of power.

What’s depth? How do you measure that?
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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I found this an interesting sales article, might upset a few people here.
Written by a gentleman named Duncan Taylor, my technical expertise is out for lunch, but he does say a few things that ring home with me.
A sales speel is involved but -------------------------------

"Depth. That’s what you get with a good A/B amp that you just can’t quite touch with even the most excellent Class D.

Sorry, it’s the truth. Most Class A/B amps on most loads at most volumes stay in Class A anyway, and there’s no contest.

Sure, you can optimize the path of the power to your Class D monoblocks, use isolation bases to minimize vibration, place Shakti Stones or other EMI/RFI filters over the PCBs, put on your voodoo suit and hail the demon gods of audio to deliver Nirvana.

Or you can plug in a high quality A/B amp and never look back.

That pesky switching frequency and the usual harmonics of Class D just end up getting in the way of the sheer magic that is possible with the world’s best A/Bs.

Even if you eliminate the upper harmonics and create a harmonic structure similar to tube amps, as PS Audio does with the Stellar S300 amplifier I use for testing, you can’t quite match the subtle details an A/B brings that make up perceived depth in a soundstage representation.

Amp designers will say most tube amps offer more positive and negative second order harmonic distortion — low order as opposed to the high order of Class Ds. Sense of depth is connected to a touch of second order, but that’s not the whole story.

Signal purity, phase correctness, wide bandwidth at full power — these are other hallmarks of an amp that will expand the sound to the back walls and beyond."



https://tmraudio.blogspot.com/2018/...173644581&mc_cid=892d6c251b&mc_eid=04329ee09d
The old cliche "all generalizations are false, except this one" applies.

I replaced a pair of pure Class A Krell KAS-2 monoblocks, MSRP = $22k, with a Spectron Musician III Mk. 2 stereo Class D, MSRP = $4k, about 6-7 years ago and never looked back. There were slight but noticeable subjective sonic differences in AB home trial, which were, of course, imperfect due to cable switching time. The difference was mainly in perceived accuracy of detail, but none that I recall in perceived depth, which I believe I am sensitive to and intently listen for. There was no etch, glare or other HF sonic anomaly that I heard. But, cue up Richard Strauss' Salome and the Dance of the Seven Veils. The resale on the aging Krells paid for what I perceived to be a small but perceptable sonic upgrade, with huge savings in bulk, weight and power consumption.

My friends were all telling me, oh, no, not Class D, but I did not want them around during my evaluation. However, they liked what they heard after I had pulled the trigger. I offered my Spectron for their own amp evaluations, but anti-Class D prejudice and the pull of other popular brands kept them from accepting.

Similar comparisons in my system of the Krells to other Class Ds, which were then based on the widely popular original ICE modules, did not favor Class D at all, however. The Spectron used its own, unique Class D circuitry. I believe newer generation ICE modules are improved, particularly at lower impedances. Today, I would surely also consider Hypex, but I am in no rush. The Spectron has served me well and satisfyingly.
 
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