Real musicians prefer ...vinyl!

[Purité Audio]

Just spent a really enjoyable couple of house with Dave Lewis and Fi Carroll ,both musicians and writers and local neighbours.
Dave is a saxophonist he has played with everyone, currently with Chaz Jankel and the 'Blockheads' , Dave and Fi have just released a new album,
Dave Lewis' 1UP 'Under the same Sun' which was recorded direct to tape with no mastering.They wanted to compare the Cd and Vinyl editions, Fi said that the only differences was that the track order had to be altered to fit onto vinyl, recording was at Eascote Studios and the mixing and vinyl cutting was at Abbey Road.
It is a super album and very nice recording so highly recommended , we listened to both versions skipping between vinyl and CD ,roughly equalising volume and which did the musicians prefer, vinyl!
They said it just sounded more like being at the recording, it had a warmth and the instruments meshed rather than being compartmentalised as in the Cd version.
Extremely interesting to talk to them though ,to see the vinyl master being cut and to discuss the way the recording was made.
Worth checking out if you want to hear vinyl versus digital with the absolute minimum of production differences.
Keith.

 

[amirm]

THanks for sharing. Hard for me to do these comparisons since I don't have a high-end turntable.

 

[Purité Audio]

Although the band played all together and at the same time, and although they could see each other they weren't in the exact same space, Dave told me that his ( saxophone) playing sounded odd because he has headphones on so that he can hear the other players but that he tries to keep one ear uncovered so he can hear the acoustic of his own playing.
So the players don't fully hear themselves in the same way as if practising at home for example.
Keith.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Just one more indication I am not a real musician.

I will repeat something I have mentioned before. Once you do recording it becomes obvious the musicians don't know what they sound like. So they aren't as good a judge of fidelity as often is imagined. They might be very good judges of what sounds like good music however.

 

[RayDunzl]

recorded direct to tape with no mastering

The samples provided at http://www.davelewis1up.com/ sound like they have received plenty of tweezing to me.

Recorded at Eastcote Studios

Probably Studio One - equipment list

Abbey Road participation: "Sean Magee, mastering engineer and vinyl guru at Abbey Road Studios cut ‘Under the Same Sun’ to vinyl. He specialises in cutting to vinyl lacquer."

An unrelated discussion of Vinyl Mastering.

---

I recorded a couple of the sample tracks, and they would appear to be highly processed, in my humble industry-outsider amateur experienced opinion.

Reverb, echo, overall limiting of peaks to within about a 2dB range, and whatever other little secrets the studio engineer applied to the individual tracks from his bag'o'tools listed above.

Not "direct" in any sense, according to my* understanding of it.

However, the recordings are well done, so, I'm not trying to trash the effort, just examining the description.


*Direct to whichever medium: Performance -> microphone -> gain control -> mixdown if multi-mic'd -> only the most essential EQ (if any) -> storage medium -> consumer

 

[Sal1950]

it had a warmth and the instruments meshed rather than being compartmentalised as in the Cd version.

Would that mean the CD delivered better inner detail and each instrument could be heard better as separate different sources, where the vinyl kind of "meshed" everything together?

 

[NorthSky]

This is good research and info Ray. ...And an interesting thread's subject Keith.
I never recorded on vinyl, but my friend did, several times...on open-reel-tapes too and on CDs, he probably has some downloads too.
He also played @ Carnegie Hall once, or perhaps more than once.
He's away right now, but I'll ask him his take on this fascinating subject. Of course it's different mastering processes for different professional musicians...and the record labels and the mixing/recording engineers and the different room studios and the different recording gear and mics used.

And one of my uncles was also a professional singer/musician who recorded in analog (tapes and vinyl) and in digital (CDs); I'll ask him too.

I myself is only an amateur musician; so I never recorded on vinyl, only on open-reel-tapes, cassette tapes, VHS tapes and CD-R/Ws.
The CD-Rs are definitely more practical and I had enough practice with the mic positioning, recorder meter levels, etc., to have some pleasant quality music recordings that were a fair illusion. The open-reel-tapes were also very good sounding, and even more natural and much closer to the real performance.
And I could add more instruments (dubbing) to my tracks (I could with CDs too but the process was more complicated ... for another time perhaps...).

With open-reel-tapes, to go from one spot to another was sometime time consuming, more maintenance with the recording equipment, more involved with the process. Musicians in general might not be audiophiles in the purest term, but they are more musical than most audiophile...they breathe music inside them.
It's two entities between the music player and the music listener, and both can trade places/change roles: the musician becomes the listener and the listener is now the music player.

We're all music listeners, and we're all musicians too, up to a level different than another level.
With love and happiness and humor I can easily say that vinyl is sweet, mellow, yellow, warm and relaxing.
And I can also say that digital is grand scale, majestic, powerful, intense, emotional, vivid, vivace, electrifying and energetic.

Good thread...to be continued...

* Tim, Don, and I'm sure other members here (and guests too) are accomplished musicians (some pro), and they too can contribute greatly in this thread.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I know a lot of musicians. Only one of them is any kind of audiophile at all. None of the rest, to my knowledge, think of vinyl as anything more than a hipster obsession. The instrument separation is a function of mic placement and mixing. If you want it to be as bad as vinyl, that shouldn't be hard to accomplish.

Tim

 

[NorthSky]

Tim, all your musicians friends do they all own a turntable that they use to listen to music?
Or do they own a CD player from Bose or the like, and play music from their computer?
That's what my closest professional friend musician does, the later. ...And of course live.

I know few musicians and zero are audiophiles, zero. You must know few more musicians than I do because one of them is some sort of audiophile.

This would be a good poll to start for me...over @ gearslutz among the musicians there (amateurs and pros).

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Most I know are like civilians - they play music from their phones through bluetooth speakers. A couple have home recording setups with active monitors, etc. No turntables I'm aware of.

Tim

 

[Thomas savage]

Civilians lol

 

[Purité Audio]

I don't believe they set out to recreate a 50's recording, just wanted to capture somrpething of the way they sound live, hence all being in the same space,if not the same room at the same time.
I will try and discover exactly what was done, I know it was multi mic'd ,
Keith

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I don't believe they set out to recreate a 50's recording, just wanted to capture somrpething of the way they sound live, hence all being in the same space,if not the same room at the same time.
I will try and discover exactly what was done, I know it was multi mic'd ,
Keith

Usually, when musicians talk about capturing their live sound, they're talking about the energy and spontaneity of their performance, not the ambience of the room. Even audiophiles don't seem to know the difference between true hall ambience and the illusion of it created with reverb and mixing in a bit of crowd noise. Multi-tracking, instead of playing together, can be very challenging for people accustomed to playing together and off of each other. Much more of a challenge than making a studio recording sound like it was recorded in an ambient space. That "ambient space" thing is about 95% audiophile fantasy. Yes, I measured it. 95%.

Tim

 

[ceedee]

That "ambient space" thing is about 95% audiophile fantasy. Yes, I measured it. 95%.

Totally agree. Now more than ever; we have some great reverbs available today that can be very transparent...just about any type of space can be simulated.

I'd say that hardly any mixes get made which don't use some type of artificial reverb. Very often the different elements in the mix are sent to one reverb on an aux track, with the goal of putting them in the same "space." If you want to simulate a studio/room sound, you won't really notice the reverb unless you bypass it. A hall will be more obvious but can still sound incredibly realistic.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Totally agree. Now more than ever; we have some great reverbs available today that can be very transparent...just about any type of space can be simulated.

I'd say that hardly any mixes get made which don't use some type of artificial reverb. Very often the different elements in the mix are sent to one reverb on an aux track, with the goal of putting them in the same "space." If you want to simulate a studio/room sound, you won't really notice the reverb unless you bypass it. A hall will be more obvious but can still sound incredibly realistic.

Yes, because hardly any recordings are made without placing the mics far too close to the instruments and singers to capture any real hall ambience.

Tim

 

[TBone]

Patricia Barber's Cafe Blue UN-mastered ...

Audiophiles can compare the mastered w/artificial reverb version -vs- the UN-mastered version.

Which version will audiophiles prefer?

Not heard it yet, like the concept tho ...

(~some singers sound better with reverb)

 

[Ron Party]

... and auto tune (LOL)

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Patricia Barber's Cafe Blue UN-mastered ...

Audiophiles can compare the mastered w/artificial reverb version -vs- the UN-mastered version.
View attachment 2244

Which version will audiophiles prefer?

Not heard it yet, like the concept tho ...

(~some singers sound better with reverb)

Un-mastered does not mean no reverb. Reverb can, and often is added to individual instruments and voices.

Tim

 

[NorthSky]

Any of you here with the White Album from the Beatles?
• http://www.analogplanet.com/content/buying-beatles-white-album-0#LOxRZdKhQCfXyGaw.97
• http://www.cnet.com/news/dont-buy-the-beatles-remasters-unless/

 

[krabapple]

- 'roughly equalized' the volume
- comparison was done sighted (?)

Right. Nothing to see here.