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Review and Measurements of PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC

LTig

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My apologies for the latter. I understood you as referring to consumers when you used “They” in the first paragraph. On second reading, you may have been talking about the manufacturers instead.
I spoke about the manufacturers, as you did.
As I have posted separately, nobody is trying to add distortion,
I'd like to disagree. Adding 2nd level distortion intentionally is common for boutique highend designers. Some do it with tubes, others with transformers or FETs. A typical representative of the latter is Nelson Pass, who even designed a distortion-adding circuit and gave several of them to other people to let them find out how much they preferred.

but that some components of deviation from input that is measured as part of the overall “distortion” may have no impact on hearing or may sound better to some because it makes it sound brighter, less harsh, etc. Distortion as a deviation from input captures all of that without the ability to distinguish (as the measurements and inferences exist today). We need to fix that.
I think we know more than just the single SINAD number @amirm uses as final quality criterium:
  • The frequency response shows us linear distortions.
  • The FFT spectrum shows us hum, power supply components, harmonic distortion and inharmonic as well.
It is well known that higher harmonic distortion components harm sound more then lower ones, so looking at the harmonics and their amplitudes tells us a lot. Other than linear distortions which often can be fixed with an EQ there is no way to get rid of harmonic and inharmonic distortion. Therefore every preamp should have both an EQ and a switchable distortion adder so that the user can set the sound as he prefers.

Mine at least has both EQ and tone controls. I use the EQ for room correction and the tone control for recordings with bad frequency balance.
 

LTig

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The reconstruction filter is a very, very steep and well designed linear phase filter it would seem from the test results.
I suspect you meant the transformer is part of the post filtering circuit.
The steep linear filter is the low pass filter behind the interpolation stage (both create the upsampling stage). The reconstruction filter is always an analog low pass behind the DAC chip (it takes away the "edges";)). The transformer is a part of this low pass.
 

PierreV

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Oh heck, I am ancient and I look a lot better than either of those guys.

Is that an objective assessment or a subjective one? I'd like to see some facial symetry data, a comparison with a reference face or, failing that, at least a blind test on your tinder profile...

PS: imo, ad hominem attacks here are not better than the ones directed at Amir elsewhere. Let the measurements speak for themselves.
 

LTig

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As much more of an expert on signal transformers than most, I'd like to weigh in here.
First up let me state that I don't want to dispute your experience.
[..]
The reviewer gives a perhaps unintended impression that transformers are always bad in a signal path. IMO, this is very, very untrue. When done properly, using a transformer is quite often the superior way to go, e.g., for balanced input of preamp/amp, it's rather hard to design a transformerless differential input that doesn't color the sound more than a well-selected transformer.
I can agree in so far as my active speakers (K&H O300D) have transformers in the input and sound very good. OTOH any distortion from the transformer may easily be swamped by the distortion of the chassis.
Opinions may vary wildly, but, in my >40 years of pro experience, this has been well demonstrated in practice.
Now comes the critical path;). Did this practice involve measurements or are you talking about subjective listening experiences?

Using audio transformers in studio equipment may still be a better choice when weighing hum and noise suppression versus additional distortion.
 

LTig

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It would have to because the primary of the transformer is the reconstruction filter. I will test to be sure but I suspect unbalanced is derived from the balanced output of the transformer.
Would that mean that there are buffer stages for balanced and unbalanced outputs behind the transformer. Otherwise I don't know how a single secondary coil can feed both outputs at the same time.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

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From a post on PS Audio Forum:

1569307819822.png


Members here know that I have praised products from iFi and Schiit when they perform well.

Schiit Modi 3 review: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...w-and-measurements-of-schiit-modi-3-dac.4742/

Conclusions
The S/PDIF performance of Schiit Modi 3 Uber put a smile on my face and easily garners my recommendation for that use. The DAC is a bargain at that price with that level of performance.

Ifi iDSD Black Edition: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dsd-black-label-dacs-and-headphone-amps.3717/

As such, iFi iDSD Black Edition gets my strongest recommendation in headphone DACs and Amplifiers. Well done iFi.

As to UpTone, their product had a clear design flaw which I discovered. They [Alex Crespi, business partner to Swensen and alias Superdad] fought and fought, only to agree at the end that the measurements were correct and isolated power supply was not isolating as my tests showed: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...regen-review-and-measurements.1829/post-46792
Okay, I give up. You're right.

Leading to redesign:
Regarding the original topic of this thread, we just announced a redesigned version of the product with a number of feature and performance enhancements:

So yes, Swenson designed products that create problems because he didn't know how to test them. At best they do nothing good. At worse, they mess up the performance of the system. This is the power of objective measurements. They reveal the truth in audio. Audiophile listening doesn't.
 

LTig

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[..]
But here is Rupert Neve, an engineer I have a lot of respect for, describing the resonance produced by his transformer-based designs as a "sweet" and "musical" sound (17:40). He also discusses the subjective "musicality" of his EQ designs and how he prefers the addition of a small amount of 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion (20:00). And, yes, he's over 60:cool:
His preamps are used to handle a single microphone for a single instrument or voice. They act as sound processors, as most dedicated microphone preamps for studio use. If the mixing engineer thinks that something sounds better when using such a preamp he uses it - and I'm fine with that. Hey, even the mastering engineer does process the sound.

But when the finished product is delivered it should not be necessary to process it more, other than for room correction. And if it is necessary I prefer a niceness knob in the preamp to add whatever I like, since it depends on the recording.
 

solderdude

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Would that mean that there are buffer stages for balanced and unbalanced outputs behind the transformer. Otherwise I don't know how a single secondary coil can feed both outputs at the same time.

It could be done with a CT output winding where the CT is connected to ground and only one hot output is connected to RCA.
In this case one could not use both outputs at the same time though.
Not saying this is inside the DAC just that it could be done this way, not promoting it either because groundloops are possible this way which transformers aim to break.
 

VintageFlanker

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"Amir is an imbecile. Don't trust anyone's ears but your own. I certainly do not trust 60 year old year men ears who cannot hear above 8khz."
I feel sorry for ASR...:confused:

Needless to say, the thread quoted (and probably most others on many forums) are keep saying the same things over and over: "Who's this random dude? Nobody cares.", "What the fuck? Mine sounds fantastic!", "Never read ASR, Always trust your own ears". "The guy has an agenda, don't believe to this forum for ignorants" "curiously, every gear mesure bad with Amir" etc...

Let be realistic, we're talking about people who possibly bought a 6K$ with promise of sound upgrades every 6 months... Am I the only one shocked here? How a company may justify to sell something at this price supposed to perform better month after month? Why it is not performing at its best out of the box? How do you know people will like the "new" sound out of the new firmware, supposing there is any...? The bad news is, I believe there has to be a difference with upgrades... Probably some DSP trick to make you believe it sounds warmer or something... NOT High Fidelity, anyway.

Now we are in front of people fully brainwashed by decades and decades of only positive reviews about everything. They simply can't understand objectivism. Once they read an opinion they never have seen before, it has to be from some crazy old man.
 
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maty

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Looks like Ted Kaczynski has been released on an ADMAX Colorado prison work furlough under the recognizance of Paul McGowan.

If so, we can expect to see future PS Audio components to be released in non ferrous chassis and come with a rambling, hand written, owner's manual featuring all sorts of life tips...

It is not right to make personal mockery, much less compare someone with a terrorist!!!

Steel chassis are cheaper and better than aluminum. Just be careful to keep distances to the walls (at least 6 mm, better 10 mm). If they are made of aluminum, they must be of much thicker walls.
 
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Music1969

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The data provided here allows you to meaningfully ask questions about performance, and to assess the answers.

Agree.

The methodology is so key to the results and conclusion/s and I have seen questions asked:

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...c-deconstructing-amirs-hack-job-part-ii.6449/

I like this site but there is always that looming question about Amir's testing setup (not just which model AP) and methodology.

Amir says he can't write a bible for every product and that is perfectly understandable (obviously) but unfortunately the devil is always in the details.

That applies to Amir, to manufacturers (who leave out all the details sometime deliberately), to everyone.
 

audimus

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While I am sympathetic to your points regarding our lack of understanding about how the measurements relate to psychological outcomes, the last point regarding deviations of hearing characteristics is difficult to engage with. How would any engineer (or reviewer for that matter) be able to predict, measure or compensate for an unknown like that?
As an aside, psychological outcomes is too loaded a word. Hearing responses and limitations of hearing are physiological phenomena that can be tested. This is done in the treatment of many ear issues. For example, ear ringing in response to only certain frequencies. Hearing fatigue when exposed to sound (volume or frequency related) is also a physiological phenomena.

I think, the valid issue you are pointing to is that these physiological characteristics vary from person to person so how is one supposed to predict what any individual will perceive it as. But not because it is some unknowable psychological factor.

First of all, from a science methodology point of view, difficulty in knowing something does not excuse making invalid inferences from observation. So, the point about limitations of the inferences we can make on audibility still stands based on measurements. I was not making any point there about how anyone is supposed to compensate for it in equipment or measurement design, that is a different issue altogether.

In Science, one does not have to be ready with an alternative to invalidate an inference or assign a limitation.

Second, while individual characteristics vary, there are probabilistic categorizations we make in science all the time because human characteristics fall into broad categories. For example, what is a safe cholesterol/blood sugar level in a probabilistic sense. Weather is extremely difficult to forecast beyond 5 days because the number of data points needed and the variables needed are far too many in practice. Yet, we make probabilistic forecasts. So, science techniques exist to handle these things. In some cases, more study is needed.

For, example, threshold of noise audibility. We have some general numbers on what noise is audible or not in volume and frequency ranges. These are probabilistic as there are individual characteristics and we could still consider a cut off as being applicable to a larger band of population but with that caveat mentioned. The engineering equivalent of this is saying a DAC is fine as long as it is kept below an output level of xV.

Measurements beyond the threshold should not be included in a metric to assess the deviation from the input if the cumulative “score” can be a mix of inaudible artifacts adding up. This is a wrong metric design to use if one is making an inference on the impact on audibility of a measurement. Yes, there are some qualitative statements made that certain things are likely inaudible but still using those in any cumulative metric is problematic (except from an engineering deviation from input perspective where audibility is not the criterion).

Unfortunately, an indiscriminate reliance on things like SINAD because it is easy for people to consume when put on a comparison table between equipment to make inferences on audibility is not a valid approach. As an engineering excellence goal, sure why not ... as long as one recognizes it as such.

The gap that really exists in science between measurement and audibility is the lack of studies on correlations between qualitative hearing perception with measurable metrics. I have said this before. What would be much more valuable is a correlational table beween things like perception of detail, stage, warmth/brightness, etc., to specific measurable things. With that you could make probabilistic and useful statements such as equipment X will likely appeal to people who like Y or that if you liked X you will probably like Y at half the price. That is far more useful than current metrics but we have long ways to get there.

We certainly cannot assume the current measurements are the last word on audibility evaluation because the correlation between these numbers and audible perception is poor and ill-defined. The latter cannot be just dismissed as if only there were “controlled tests there would be good correlation...”. That is just copping out. Until then there will always be a group that will reject these measurements and for a justifiable reason.
 

Krunok

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The reconstruction filter is a very, very steep and well designed linear phase filter it would seem from the test results.
I suspect you meant the transformer is part of the post filtering circuit.

"Filter is analog and created out of the combination of a capacitor and inductor on the primary side of the output transformer."
 

Stephensank

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First up let me state that I don't want to dispute your experience.

I can agree in so far as my active speakers (K&H O300D) have transformers in the input and sound very good. OTOH any distortion from the transformer may easily be swamped by the distortion of the chassis.

Now comes the critical path;). Did this practice involve measurements or are you talking about subjective listening experiences?

Using audio transformers in studio equipment may still be a better choice when weighing hum and noise suppression versus additional distortion.

I'll qualify my answer by saying that I have my feet planted as much in the neurotic audiophile world(card carrying Audiomaniac, as Gizmo Rosenberg called us) as I do the ribbon microphones & recording gear. And, especially given that I firmly believe that we have yet to figure out even 60% of what we need to measure to explain what we hear, I'm as willing to believe what I hear with somewhat more credence than what I measure.

So, regarding, just addressing the input side of equation, transformer vs "electronic balanced"(transformerless) inputs, it's quite trick to design a direct balanced input circuit that does not complicate the harmonic structure of the distortion, and it takes, IMO, VASTLY less of the thus "disharmonic" distortion to be audible than a transformer's simple even-order harmonics. As long as the transformer is properly loaded by the succeding circuit, and is, of course, well designed, it's fairly close to impossible for it to be the cause of "bad sound" in any way. On the output side, choice between xfmr & xfmr-less is a heck of a lot more complicated, and xfmr is not very often the better choice.

BTW, am I the only one here who finds the build quality & component choices in this dac quite bad for a $6k unit? For someone who blathers on & on about how important clean & abundant power is, Mr. McGowan's dac has a completely mundane & unimpressive main power supply, and power supply support among the circuit stages is nearly negligible, and of very base level quality. Seems like they blew the budget on custom chips & software and had little left for the rest of the build.
 

BillG

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I can't believe nobody has commented on the questionable hearing capability of influencial

I don't like the man's presentation style in the least, and I certainly don't trust his subjective listening impressions. However, I can tolerate him long enough to listen to/read his comments on functionality on the odd occasion, but only if I can't find such information elsewhere... :oops:
 

audimus

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I think we know more than just the single SINAD number @amirm uses as final quality criterium.

As engineering quality, yes. As audibility quality, yes and no (yes only in the extremes). They are not synonyms. There is no consistent inference or correlation that can be derived about audibility experience from the equipment comparison tables published after every measurement based on SINAD, for example despite knowing anything else.
 

Rja4000

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By the way, coming back to Transformer impact on THD
I measured a JDI Direct box, that uses Jensen transformers.

This is a DI box, so it's NOT a 1:1 transformer, so there is a -38dB impact on level here (-21dB by the transformer + a fixed pad on XLR input).

Output is RME ADI-Pro fs @+4dBu
In RED is THD+N level of JDI vs frequency (90kHz bandwidth).
In black, for reference, is the same RME through an SPL Volume2 attenuation, to match the level.

One can see the raise of THD at low frequencies

Note that 0dBr=-34,7dBu !
0dBFS=+4dBu

000200-THD vs Frequency_Multiple_3.png


Noise level is mainly set by high frequency noise.

FFT Plot at 20Hz
000200-THD vs Frequency_THD vs Frequency_0.png
 

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solderdude

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"Filter is analog and created out of the combination of a capacitor and inductor on the primary side of the output transformer."

For filtering the DSD stream output yes, when converting the PCM there is a very steep linear phase filter applied which works really well judging from the measurements. So for PCM the reconstruction filtering is digital and the output filter is a post filter, similar function to that of a SD DAC.
 

Krunok

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For filtering the DSD stream output yes, when converting the PCM there is a very steep linear phase filter applied which works really well judging from the measurements. So for PCM the reconstruction filtering is digital and the output filter is a post filter, similar function to that of a SD DAC.

Oh, I agree - I merely quoted what he wrote in 1st page. That steep filter at 22kHz surely looks digital, not analog. :)
 
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