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Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC

Krunok

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Here is some preliminary results anyway for the devices I was testing for another reason:

View attachment 13143

As you see, values below -40 dB are jagged on Topping D10/D50 because they are not converging due to their small values. If you ignore that roughness though, the D50 seems like Topping DX7s with that hump in mid levels. The D10 is actually superior that way without that as was the Topping DX7.
Amazing!

Btw, D10 is been playing connected to RPI running Volumio at least 8 hours every day since I bought it and it plays without any issues whatsoever.
 
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The question is what are you gonna push with it? Im using an oldie but goldie "Tresh" Class T 2020 T-Amp like module tho its not diy per se (AudioDigit). They are comfortable with pushing big ol compress speakers. All the "nuances" of d-class are there tbh, and from few days ago since reading all the rave reviews on 8c i decided to go saving mode and buy myself D&D in about 6-9 months from now as a long term investment in audio equpiment.

If you intend to enjoy music to its fullest i would suggest something more substantial than d-class amps (unless we talking ice or something like that). All in all depends on what will you be pushing with it.
 

Krunok

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The question is what are you gonna push with it? Im using an oldie but goldie "Tresh" Class T 2020 T-Amp like module tho its not diy per se (AudioDigit). They are comfortable with pushing big ol compress speakers. All the "nuances" of d-class are there tbh, and from few days ago since reading all the rave reviews on 8c i decided to go saving mode and buy myself D&D in about 6-9 months from now as a long term investment in audio equpiment.

If you intend to enjoy music to its fullest i would suggest something more substantial than d-class amps (unless we talking ice or something like that). All in all depends on what will you be pushing with it.
Well, as he said "desktop system" i believe 80W at 4 Ohms with 0,04% THD and 90dB SNR is "substantial" enough. ;)

Unless of course you think D-class amps are not "substantial" enough by design, in which case I'm very curious to hear your arguments.

Btw, Topping PA3 is, according to specs, in every aspect much more "substantial" than TA2020 class T amp.
 
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I can do it with the new analyzer. Alas, I am still working on creating my test parameters so that they work well and match my previous measurements. This is proving a bit challenging as the new analyzer is really picky about stability of measurements when noise dominates (like above at low dBFS). I sort have THD measurements working but IMD is still work in progress. Remind me in a week or two and I will tackle this.
Whatever difference he measures you won't be able to hear it, unless the new op amp is having some serious trouble, in which case the measurement will very clearly show it.

Swapping op amps is a myth without any technical proves and a marketing trick.

If you wan't to "tame" your highs you can consider a DAC with option to change output filter. As for "tighter bass" I can only recommend to check different speakers that would more suite your taste as that really has nothing to do with op amps used in modern DACs.
The bigest quality difference that i accompised was changing my accoustics with demping pannels geting rid of first reflections an standing low freq waves second changing speakers (from KRK to IMF compact II monitors ( 40 year old speakers). In % i think 75% or higher.
 
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Krunok

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Dude, not looking for a fight, im asking what will he push with it and conveying my limited experience with cheapo chip amps.

I didnt say that the PA3 is bad, i said that topology of the amp, chip it uses and overall issues that chip amps have could be a bottle neck in case of specific speakers, that's why i asked WHAT will he push with that amp. My friend uses Usher S520 (i sold them to him) as a desktop speaker and i can tell you that they are power hungry beyond expectation. I do not assume anything nor did i want to belittle D-class amps (speakers i want to buy are powered by d-class amps).

P.S. Power ratings of TDA7498E chip and TA2020 were optimistic at best, many people bought into the power rating story just to find themselves unsatisfied with the result. My amp cleanly pushes big compression boxes with 12" bass, so power is not lacking even on lower speced TA2020, im just pointing out that i hear the difference between solid state amp and my current one based on previous experience and what i hear, might be the outdated chip, might be the build itself but it results in sonic quality cheap d-amps are known for, bass is there, highs are clear, mids are kinda detailed but without substance. We all want the best for our fellow patients.
I'm not fighting you, I'm merely offering an opinion that PA3 will be able to drive whatever speakers he will put on his desk.

Btw, looking at the specs of TDA7498E I don't have a reason to believe Topping's power rating is "optimistic".
http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resou...df/jcr:content/translations/en.DM00044235.pdf

P.S. don't call me "dude", we never met so we are not pals and chances are I'm old enough to be your father.
 

Krunok

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This is a rather bold assumption you are making. I was merely offering personal experience with a device of similar topology. And no, PA3 will not run "whatever" speaker he puts on his desk. Your opinion is worth as much as mine, additionally my opinion is based on experience, i would expect to provide evidence for your statements at least. This is not biased forum but forum based on facts and measurements if I'm not mistaken.

P.S. You are rude, you are ignored. This is a community and by default i consider you my friend, if you are not my friend you're not worthy of my attention. Have a nice day.
Let's summarize the facts:
- we were talking about driving the speakers to be put on the desk. So no floorstanders nor some serious smaller speakers intended to be put on stands as an alternative to floor standers, but speakers designed to play on the desk, whose weight probably won't exceed 2kg each.
- you mentioned some "nuances" of the D class amplifiers but didn't offer any technical facts to support that assumption.
- you mentined that PA3 was rated "optmistically". I offered manufacturer specification of the TDA7498E where it is clearly stated that chip is capable of more power than Topping declared - you didn't comment.
- you are saying your opinion is based on your experience, yet in post #426 you said you have "limited experience"

Now, without questioning your experience, I doubt you have ever seen a 2kg desktop speaker jumping of the desk when 50W or so has been pushed to it, have you?

And no, except for the pro guys here that have met in real life, the rest of us are not "friends" here. We are a bunch of audio enthusiasts that share common pashion and are trying to learn something from these pro's.

But finally, yes, there is one thing you did got right - this is a forum based on fatcs and measurements and not "experience" and "opinions", so I strongly recommend you choose one of the other forums where your "experience" will be more appreciated.
 

Krunok

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I have a few desktop speaker amps in the queue that I have purchased. So let's reserve the discussion on that when I measure them. :)
Sure, let's wait and see. :)

But, as I said, based on TDA7498E chip specs PA3 looks fairly specced to me. And based on the other Topping products you have measured so far it seems that Toppings engineers know what they're doing, so I'm expecting your measurements of PA3 to pretty much confirm it. ;)
 
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Nice suggestions guys, although the PA3 seems to be ideal due to it size and mobility for desktop set-ups. Also excited to see your measurements @amirm on your desktop amps inventory.
 
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Guys, I am in the process of choosing D10 or D50... but there's something that pop out in my mind regarding D10 and it's a why?
Why did topping designers made the D10 opamp rollable with 2134 as default? as compared to the D50 which is not.
The opamp are derived from line out. Are they implying that it will have a better analog signal compare to D50 with rolled with proper chip. The D50 uses 1612. Any opinions...thanks
 
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gvl

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They made it rollable so it can be rolled. Audiophiles like to fiddle with their gear, op-amps, tubes, capacitors, crystal clocks, DAC chips, what not, in search of audio nirvana. I doubt there was any real engineering reason for it, just to make it look more appealing to the audiophile crowd.
 
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They made it rollable so it can be rolled. Audiophiles like to fiddle with their gear, op-amps, tubes, capacitors, crystal clocks, DAC chips, what not, in search of audio nirvana. I doubt there was any real engineering reason for it, just to make it look more appealing to the audiophile crowd.
marketing appeal probably to enthusiast.

@amirm , just a thought... generally would the FR be impacted when opamp is rolled with say opa2209 or any? thanks
 
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I've been lurking these forums for a while and I've found alot of useful information already.
I'm in a situation where I'm in need of a new DAC for my active speakers and sub (Genelec 2x 6040 and 1x 5040), and the D10 seems like an excellent budget option, the D50 and D30 has also crossed my mind but I'm not really sure I've would really notice a difference tbh.

Just a few quick questions before I pull the trigger.
So since the Genelecs are active speakers, I can just plug them straight into the D10 Line-out with an RCA, without an pre-amp at all, correct ?
I'm also slightly worried about the DAC being USB-powered, should I get the D30 instead just because it has a separete power adapter ?

Thanks in advance and thanks for a awesome site!
 

DonH56

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Guys, I am in the process of choosing D10 or D50... but there's something that pop out in my mind regarding D10 and it's a why?
Why did topping designers made the D10 opamp rollable with 2134 as default? as compared to the D50 which is not.
The opamp are derived from line out. Are they implying that it will have a better analog signal compare to D50 with rolled with proper chip. The D50 uses 1612. Any opinions...thanks
What do you define as a "proper" chip and why?

I have no real idea. A socket costs more and reduces reliability. I suspect they were unsure of their opamp supplier and wanted the ability to swap if needed. Maybe for an "upgraded" special edition version. Or could be playing audiophile nervosa, no way to know without asking them (assuming they answer).

Really doubt you'd notice the difference in the sound but after reading a rave review of the improvement brought about by changing a power cord to a TT decided I must be deaf.

So since the Genelecs are active speakers, I can just plug them straight into the D10 Line-out with an RCA, without an pre-amp at all, correct ?
I'm also slightly worried about the DAC being USB-powered, should I get the D30 instead just because it has a separete power adapter ?
Yes, assuming volume control range and noise floor is OK for that setup. You can try it and get a preamp or just simple analog volume control later if need be.

Check Amir's data and you can judge if USB power sensitivity is an issue. (Not for a decent design...)
 
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What do you define as a "proper" chip and why?

I have no real idea. A socket costs more and reduces reliability. I suspect they were unsure of their opamp supplier and wanted the ability to swap if needed. Maybe for an "upgraded" special edition version. Or could be playing audiophile nervosa, no way to know without asking them (assuming they answer).

Really doubt you'd notice the difference in the sound but after reading a rave review of the improvement brought about by changing a power cord to a TT decided I must be deaf.



Yes, assuming volume control range and noise floor is OK for that setup. You can try it and get a preamp or just simple analog volume control later if need be.

Check Amir's data and you can judge if USB power sensitivity is an issue. (Not for a decent design...)
@DonH56 , the "proper chip" I'm referring to is the opa1612 in the D50 which is permanently soldered, so maybe the designers decided it is the best optimal combination. But on the D10 they released it as opamp rollable well maybe you're right just for marketing hype to target audiophiles who loves to change opamps. :)
 
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I've been lurking these forums for a while and I've found alot of useful information already.
I'm in a situation where I'm in need of a new DAC for my active speakers and sub (Genelec 2x 6040 and 1x 5040), and the D10 seems like an excellent budget option, the D50 and D30 has also crossed my mind but I'm not really sure I've would really notice a difference tbh.

Just a few quick questions before I pull the trigger.
So since the Genelecs are active speakers, I can just plug them straight into the D10 Line-out with an RCA, without an pre-amp at all, correct ?
I'm also slightly worried about the DAC being USB-powered, should I get the D30 instead just because it has a separete power adapter ?

Thanks in advance and thanks for a awesome site!
Yes I am wandering the same thing. Would the additional components in the external power supply, such as they are, produce a better final result than the USB power from the noisy PC? In the past, I've seen recommendations to use an externally-powered USB hub when dealing with DACs like these, according to some testing that was performed, can't recall where.

Also, how can we better understand the linearity vs jitter measurements that were reported earlier in this thread, when comparing D10 and D30? I too am not concerned with toslink and coax, only USB.
 
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Not sure if DIY discussions are prevalent on this forum, but I am wandering if it would be a difficult task to combine two D10's or D30's into a balanced DAC. I am thinking something like, placing two D30s into a single enclosure, with the outputs going into a circuit that would combine them into a balanced signal, powered by a PS that can power the DACs as well. Or would it make sense to just go DIY from the ground up, for example with Twisted Pear or something?
 
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