Source Component Compatibility with Preamp

[scriabin]

I was looking at the measurements of the PrimaLuna EVO 100 DAC which has a output impedance as follows:
"Output impedance is excessively high at 2.38kohm through mid and treble, increasing further to 3.5kohm/100Hz and 12.1kohm/20Hz, suggesting the EVO 100 will be fairly cable and preamp-sensitive. As expected, the response falls away at bass... " (This information was pasted from a review of the DAC).
My preamp has a input impedance of 33K. I understand the rule of times 10 for amp and preamp - Does this rule apply here as well?
Thank you.

 

[DVDdoug]

I understand the rule of times 10 for amp and preamp - Does this rule apply here as well?

Yes. Especially if the output (or input) impedance varies with frequency. If the output and input impedance are resistive (constant with frequency) then you just get attenuation and it's less of a problem.

I was wondering if those "bad" measurements were true, but a quick search tells me that's a "tube DAC" so I believe it. Maybe that's part of the "tube vibe". It's not necessary to have such low output impedance from a tube but tubes are "naturally" high impedance. They also tend to have high input impedance so it should be OK plugged into a "typical" tube amp.

...Tubes are dumb!

 

[scriabin]

Yes. Especially if the output (or input) impedance varies with frequency. If the output and input impedance are resistive (constant with frequency) then you just get attenuation and it's less of a problem.

I was wondering if those "bad" measurements were true, but a quick search tells me that's a "tube DAC" so I believe it. Maybe that's part of the "tube vibe". It's not necessary to have such low output impedance from a tube but tubes are "naturally" high impedance. They also tend to have high input impedance so it should be OK plugged into a "typical" tube amp.

...Tubes are dumb!

Thank you.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Tubes have only one purpose in an audio circuit in this day & age: that is, to add distortion. In the best case, the distortion will be benign 2nd and/or 3rd order harmonics, but generally you also add a fair bit of high order distortion and noise. Additionally tube equipment is frequently fraught with such issues as the high and frequency-variable output impedance such as you have with the PrimaLuna tube DAC.

Tube DACs. (IMHO), are audiophile sucker bait. Today you can get an ultra-low distortion solid-state DAC for under $500; why spend US$3400 for the likes of the EVO 100? Flog your PrimaLuna and get, (say), a Topping or SMSL DAC for some small fraction of what you get from the sale.

I mock old-time audiophiles who have a tube DAC or tube phono preamp driving a tube line preamp driving a tube power amplifier -- trouble all up & down the chain. If you absolutely, positively must have some added 2nd/3rd order distortion restrict yourself to a decent tube line preamp with output impedance of <1000 ohms. (My Sonic Frontiers Line 1 tube preamp has an output impedance specification of 45 ohms, single-ended or 90 ohms, balanced.) Up & downstream components ought to be of the ultra-low distortion variety.

 

[solderdude]

I was looking at the measurements of the PrimaLuna EVO 100 DAC which has a output impedance as follows:
"Output impedance is excessively high at 2.38kohm through mid and treble, increasing further to 3.5kohm/100Hz and 12.1kohm/20Hz, suggesting the EVO 100 will be fairly cable and preamp-sensitive. As expected, the response falls away at bass... " (This information was pasted from a review of the DAC).
My preamp has a input impedance of 33K. I understand the rule of times 10 for amp and preamp - Does this rule apply here as well?
Thank you.

It means that with this pre-amp 20Hz will be -2dB opposite the mids and 100Hz will be -0.3dB.
An 1m RCA cable will have around -0.5dB treble roll-off at 100kHz (so HF roll-off is negligible)
Best would be an input R of 100k or higher.

 

[scriabin]

Tubes have only one purpose in an audio circuit in this day & age: that is, to add distortion. In the best case, the distortion will be benign 2nd and/or 3rd order harmonics, but generally you also add a fair bit of high order distortion and noise. Additionally tube equipment is frequently fraught with such issues as the high and frequency-variable output impedance such as you have with the PrimaLuna tube DAC.

Tube DACs. (IMHO), are audiophile sucker bait. Today you can get an ultra-low distortion solid-state DAC for under $500; why spend US$3400 for the likes of the EVO 100? Flog your PrimaLuna and get, (say), a Topping or SMSL DAC for some small fraction of what you get from the sale.

I mock old-time audiophiles who have a tube DAC or tube phono preamp driving a tube line preamp driving a tube power amplifier -- trouble all up & down the chain. If you absolutely, positively must have some added 2nd/3rd order distortion restrict yourself to a decent tube line preamp with output impedance of <1000 ohms. (My Sonic Frontiers Line 1 tube preamp has an output impedance specification of 45 ohms, single-ended or 90 ohms, balanced.) Up & downstream components ought to be of the ultra-low distortion variety.

Thank you for those comments. Very much appreciated. I will check out the Topping DAC.

 

[egellings]

Tubes have only one purpose in an audio circuit in this day & age: that is, to add distortion. In the best case, the distortion will be benign 2nd and/or 3rd order harmonics, but generally you also add a fair bit of high order distortion and noise. Additionally tube equipment is frequently fraught with such issues as the high and frequency-variable output impedance such as you have with the PrimaLuna tube DAC.

Tube DACs. (IMHO), are audiophile sucker bait. Today you can get an ultra-low distortion solid-state DAC for under $500; why spend US$3400 for the likes of the EVO 100? Flog your PrimaLuna and get, (say), a Topping or SMSL DAC for some small fraction of what you get from the sale.

I mock old-time audiophiles who have a tube DAC or tube phono preamp driving a tube line preamp driving a tube power amplifier -- trouble all up & down the chain. If you absolutely, positively must have some added 2nd/3rd order distortion restrict yourself to a decent tube line preamp with output impedance of <1000 ohms. (My Sonic Frontiers Line 1 tube preamp has an output impedance specification of 45 ohms, single-ended or 90 ohms, balanced.) Up & downstream components ought to be of the ultra-low distortion variety.

Tube preamps and power amps, when designed with a judicious use of negative feedback can sound more neutral and less 'tubey'. Of course, that begs the question, why use tubes then? It's in the listener's personal preferences. Someone may actually like veering away from scientifically verifiable accuracy to something that is euphonic.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Tube preamps and power amps, when designed with a judicious use of negative feedback can sound more neutral and less 'tubey'. Of course, that begs the question, why use tubes then? It's in the listener's personal preferences. Someone may actually like veering away from scientifically verifiable accuracy to something that is euphonic.

In fact I totally agree. People ought to be able exercise personal preference. If they like a "tubey" sound by all means don't criticize them for buying and using tube equipment. Likewise people should not be criticized for buying very expensive equipment for looks, prestige, or whatever reason.

However what I would like to see is that people who buy tube equipment or exotic or expensive equipment do it with an adequate understanding that they are not doing if for a more accurate, true-to-the-recording sound. "Tubey" sound is achieved by adding distortion -- albeit distortion that individuals may enjoy. Let this be understood.

An example of an exotic, (relatively) expensive piece of equipment would be the OP's PrimaLuna EVO 100 DAC. Check out the description and photos of this component. One thing that can fairly be said is that you get lot of exotic stuff inside that is expensive and for which you are paying. The scam is that product hype implies that that exotic stuff adds to the accuracy of the sound. What buyers need to be understood is that things like tube rectification, a tube clock oscillator, or point-to-point wiring add nothing to the clarity or detail of the sound.

FWIW, I own a tube preamp that is far more neutral sounding than a typical tube pre. The irony is that this preamp, the Sonic Frontiers Line 1, and SF components in general, had very lukewarm reception in the market place specifically because they wer felt to be "too solid state-like".

 

[scriabin]

It means that with this pre-amp 20Hz will be -2dB opposite the mids and 100Hz will be -0.3dB.
An 1m RCA cable will have around -0.5dB treble roll-off at 100kHz (so HF roll-off is negligible)
Best would be an input R of 100k or higher.

Thank you.

 

[egellings]

In fact I totally agree. People ought to be able exercise personal preference. If they like a "tubey" sound by all means don't criticize them for buying and using tube equipment. Likewise people should not be criticized for buying very expensive equipment for looks, prestige, or whatever reason.

However what I would like to see is that people who buy tube equipment or exotic or expensive equipment do it with an adequate understanding that they are not doing if for a more accurate, true-to-the-recording sound. "Tubey" sound is achieved by adding distortion -- albeit distortion that individuals may enjoy. Let this be understood.

An example of an exotic, (relatively) expensive piece of equipment would be the OP's PrimaLuna EVO 100 DAC. Check out the description and photos of this component. One thing that can fairly be said is that you get lot of exotic stuff inside that is expensive and for which you are paying. The scam is that product hype implies that that exotic stuff adds to the accuracy of the sound. What buyers need to be understood is that things like tube rectification, a tube clock oscillator, or point-to-point wiring add nothing to the clarity or detail of the sound.

FWIW, I own a tube preamp that is far more neutral sounding than a typical tube pre. The irony is that this preamp, the Sonic Frontiers Line 1, and SF components in general, had very lukewarm reception in the market place specifically because they wer felt to be "too solid state-like".

Agree.

 

[Al So Rand]

Imagine "mocking old time audiophiles" like ME that own a Primaluna EVO tube DAC and Primaluna Dialogue Premium tube Preamp....My goodness.
Do you think that Primaluna were so negligent as to NOT bother to pair and evaluate the EVO 100 DAC with their Pre Amps and Integrated Amps so they could test their comatability and overall performance?

Then to go on about the Sonic Frontiers Line 1 (which I really like btw..) So does the owner of Part Connexion who makes a good buck upgrading them...

I like what I like.... Some people prefer a more precise analytical sound through their hifi system... And that's perfectly OK.
I run the EVO DAC and the Dialogue Premium Preamp through a modified / upgraded 225 wpc. Anthem MCA 20 Solid State amp... It's the sound I like.
I do all my own modifications, fabricate all my interconnect , speaker cables as well as build speakers and hifi acessories etc...
It's a hobby to me.... Messing with vintage turntable refurbishing is my current interest...
I'm far more than happy with the way my equipment sounds than not..
I like the "Science" that permeates throughout the ASR group ( that's why I'm here), but it's not all about crunching the numbers all day long....
It's about the musical enjoyment, and my Primaluna equipment has that in spades...Mock away....
Oh, and if indeed, the 20 hz frequency is down - 2db in my system that's why I have a pair of 12" sealed, powered subwoofers that are EQ'd using either a Mirage LFX-1 analog crossover or a mini DSP 2x4 in the digital domain, depending on my listening mood...

 

[MoreWatts]

The top-half looks like it was made in 1963, the bottom-half in 2023.

 

[Al So Rand]

The top-half looks like it was made in 1963, the bottom-half in 2023.

Well Watts , looking at your avatar photo you like Sonny Rollins and great Saxophone Jazz. Some great jazz came out of the 60's (63) and still does in 2023...
I mean the Sonny meets Hawk album was around 1963 a couple of RCA albums in 62 I believe. Alfie was recorded in 66 if my memory serves..
I've been all about accurate SS equipment since I started this hobby. The 2 pieces of Primaluna tube equipment I own are the first tube products I've ever bought and I don't regret it...
Beauty (looks & SQ) are definitely in the eye of the beholder...

 

[egellings]

Enjoy whatever tickles your nun-handles the right way. You might not get to brag about an outstanding SINAD, but that's okay.

 

[MoreWatts]

Some great jazz came out of the 60's (63) and still does in 2023...
I mean the Sonny meets Hawk album was around 1963 a couple of RCA albums in 62 I believe. Alfie was recorded in 66 if my memory serves..

@Al So Rand Welcome to ASR. Now poke your nose around a bit more:

Jazz Music thread posts about Sonny Meets Hawk!: Sonny Meets Hawk! and the latest Roy McCurdy album.

Jazz Music thread post about my avatar which mentions Alfie: This Is What I Do

Jazz Music thread post about 2023 jazz: MoreWatts Top Ten Jazz Albums For The First Half Of 2023

Listen on what you like. No offense was meant. Checkout the Jazz Music thread...

 

[Al So Rand]

@Al So Rand Welcome to ASR. Now poke your nose around a bit more:

Jazz Music thread posts about Sonny Meets Hawk!: Sonny Meets Hawk! and the latest Roy McCurdy album.

Jazz Music thread post about my avatar which mentions Alfie: This Is What I Do

Jazz Music thread post about 2023 jazz: MoreWatts Top Ten Jazz Albums For The First Half Of 2023

Listen on what you like. No offense was meant. Checkout the Jazz Music thread...

Thanks for the welcome. My friends call me Al.

I will definitely check out those links, much appreciated...The world needs more jazz lovers...
I'm an old geezer who tends to listen to more modern jazz/fusion although I equally enjoy sitting back to enjoy the old time greats... There's some really talented young (40 and under) jazz/fusion musicians out there now..Always has been I guess, it's just the cycle of life.
I don't like to miss anything new and fresh...

 

[Al So Rand]

Enjoy whatever tickles your nun-handles the right way. You might not get to brag about an outstanding SINAD, but that's okay.

Thanks, I'll take that as a compliment, whatever "nun-handles" are.
I have no negative feelings about SINAD.
As a matter of fact I've been enjoying the performance of my new Eversolo DMP-A6 Streamer and its 117 SINAD score for a week and a half now...
Are there really people thinking & saying ; " Your hifi device measured 117 SINAD and mine is 123....Oh, Poor fellow....."

 

[egellings]

Thanks, I'll take that as a compliment, whatever "nun-handles" are.
I have no negative feelings about SINAD.
As a matter of fact I've been enjoying the performance of my new Eversolo DMP-A6 Streamer and its 117 SINAD score for a week and a half now...
Are there really people thinking & saying ; " Your hifi device measured 117 SINAD and mine is 123....Oh, Poor fellow....."

"Nun handles" refer to you ears. I went to a grade school that had Roman Catholic nuns (female members of a religious order) for teachers, and if a kid acted up, the nun would grab the kid by an ear and march them to the principal's office for discipline. Hence the name "nun handle".

 

[egellings]

Thanks, I'll take that as a compliment, whatever "nun-handles" are.
I have no negative feelings about SINAD.
As a matter of fact I've been enjoying the performance of my new Eversolo DMP-A6 Streamer and its 117 SINAD score for a week and a half now...
Are there really people thinking & saying ; " Your hifi device measured 117 SINAD and mine is 123....Oh, Poor fellow....."

Once SINAD gets good enough, a higher number nets no audible improvement. It just becomes number chasing.