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Speaker measurements identify listening fatigue?

Muses

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First post, although I have been reading articles here for some years. Interesting and informative site. I have a question regarding speakers and measurements.
Preamble to question: I had a pair of speakers for some years, lets call them speakers A. I used them for music as well as television, so they got a lot of use. I thought they were great, but little did I know until I retired them for speakers B. Upon speakers B becoming my daily driver, my ears no longer hurt. that's when I realized that speakers A were actually terrible. I knew my ears had been hurting, but was in denial that it was those great speakers.

My question is, in measuring speakers is there a way to identify speakers that will or will not cause listening fatigue and ones ears to hurt. If you had my speakers A, and speakers B, via measuring, could you tell which pair was causing my ears to hurt based on measurements?
 

Shazb0t

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Yes, with the measurements of both speakers we would be able to identify a discrepancy if it were to actually be causing a normal human ear pain. You can see there are clearly caveats built in there.
 

RayDunzl

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My question is, in measuring speakers is there a way to identify speakers that will or will not cause listening fatigue and ones ears to hurt. If you had my speakers A, and speakers B, via measuring, could you tell which pair was causing my ears to hurt based on measurements?


Frequency response, low distortion would be my bullet points.
 

RayDunzl

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My question is, in measuring speakers is there a way to identify speakers that will or will not cause listening fatigue and ones ears to hurt. If you had my speakers A, and speakers B, via measuring, could you tell which pair was causing my ears to hurt based on measurements?


Can you measure your own speakers, present the data, and ask again?
 

aarons915

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First post, although I have been reading articles here for some years. Interesting and informative site. I have a question regarding speakers and measurements.
Preamble to question: I had a pair of speakers for some years, lets call them speakers A. I used them for music as well as television, so they got a lot of use. I thought they were great, but little did I know until I retired them for speakers B. Upon speakers B becoming my daily driver, my ears no longer hurt. that's when I realized that speakers A were actually terrible. I knew my ears had been hurting, but was in denial that it was those great speakers.

My question is, in measuring speakers is there a way to identify speakers that will or will not cause listening fatigue and ones ears to hurt. If you had my speakers A, and speakers B, via measuring, could you tell which pair was causing my ears to hurt based on measurements?

In my experience, listening fatigue occurs in the 2-4k range, that can either be in the listening window or the early reflections, that's why it's so important to have a proper CTA-2034 style measurement that shows you the complete performance of the speaker.
 
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Muses

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Yes, with the measurements of both speakers we would be able to identify a discrepancy if it were to actually be causing a normal human ear pain. You can see there are clearly caveats built in there.
Can you point me to a review of any speakers where the reviewer stated the speakers would cause listening fatigue based on the measurements alone. Where for example, the reviewer pointed out some feature of a graph and said that would cause listening fatigue or worse, hurt your ears?

I suppose by caveat you mean you would mean you would need measurements of both speakers to compare the two?
 
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Muses

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In my experience, listening fatigue occurs in the 2-4k range, that can either be in the listening window or the early reflections, that's why it's so important to have a proper CTA-2034 style measurement that shows you the complete performance of the speaker.
Ok. So can you point me to a review that has the proper CTA-2034 style measurement and the reviewer assured readers that the speakers would or would not cause listening fatigue based on the measurements alone?
 

andreasmaaan

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Can you point me to a review of any speakers where the reviewer stated the speakers would cause listening fatigue based on the measurements alone. Where for example, the reviewer pointed out some feature of a graph and said that would cause listening fatigue or worse, hurt your ears?

Ok. So can you point me to a review that has the proper CTA-2034 style measurement and the reviewer assured readers that the speakers would or would not cause listening fatigue based on the measurements alone?

I'm not sure I understand why you would need to hear this from a reviewer specifically?
 

aarons915

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Ok. So can you point me to a review that has the proper CTA-2034 style measurement and the reviewer assured readers that the speakers would or would not cause listening fatigue based on the measurements alone?

A review isn't going to be a guarantee of that because listening fatigue can be different for different people, I was just giving my personal experience. The Polk Rti A1 is a speaker that I think most would consider to be bright and you can see how the measurements show that here:

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/polk_rtia1/
 
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Muses

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I'm not sure I understand why you would need to hear this from a reviewer specifically?
I'm not sure I understand why you would need to hear this from a reviewer specifically?
Good question.

A poster here in a thread I read some time ago claimed that all one needed in order to make a speaker purchase decision was to have the measurements, as the measurements tell all. He didn't even have to listen to them first, he claimed. At the time I thought it must be true. But later I realized no reviewer I came across made predictions concerning listening fatigue based on measurements,
so I thought I'd ask the question.

Also, I run across the theme that if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. Is that really true? If the features of a speaker that causes listening fatigue can't be measured presently, yet listening fatigue exists with some models and not others, perhaps there is further research needed to identify what measurable features precipitate fatigue and hurting ears.
 

andreasmaaan

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Good question.

A poster here in a thread I read some time ago claimed that all one needed in order to make a speaker purchase decision was to have the measurements, as the measurements tell all. He didn't even have to listen to them first, he claimed. At the time I thought it must be true. But later I realized no reviewer I came across made predictions concerning listening fatigue based on measurements,
so I thought I'd ask the question.

Also, I run across the theme that if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. Is that really true? If the features of a speaker that causes listening fatigue can't be measured presently, yet listening fatigue exists with some models and not others, perhaps there is further research needed to identify what measurable features precipitate fatigue and hurting ears.

I see where you're coming from. I can't help in terms of pointing you to subjective reviews (I don't read them lol), but I can echo what @aarons915 said in terms of the correlates between measurements and listening fatigue.

Having designed a lot of speakers and tested quite a few too, as well as having read a fair amount of research on psychoacoustics, IMO listening fatigue will tend to correlate with:
  • elevated amplitude response between 2kHz and 5kHz (where our ears are most sensitive)
  • wide directivity in the same region coupled with narrow(er) directivity in the region below ( a typical side effect of crossing over a large-ish woofer to a small tweeter with no waveguide or other mechanism to control the tweeter's directivity)
  • high distortion in the same region
Here are measurements of a speaker that I would not expect to produce listening fatigue.

And here are measurements of one that I would expect might.
 

Inner Space

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... perhaps there is further research needed to identify what measurable features precipitate fatigue and hurting ears.

I'm always in favor of research, but this avenue likely leads nowhere, because it's about idiosyncratic combinations: loudspeaker + listener, loudspeaker + listener + room, and so on.

Fatigue and hurting ears are different things - fatigue means tiredness, which can indeed result from continued assault by prominent frequencies the individual finds uncomfortable, but can also happen with the mellowest systems if cabinet resonances and room modes and flutter echo are impairing intelligibility to the point where the brain has to work hard to extract coherent meaning.

I believe loudspeakers can largely be evaluated by measurement suites alone, but for some purposes - like yours - measurements won't solve the problem, because your room is unknown, as are the frequencies that hurt you the worst, and so on.
 

andreasmaaan

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I'm always in favor of research, but this avenue likely leads nowhere, because it's about idiosyncratic combinations: loudspeaker + listener, loudspeaker + listener + room, and so on.

I agree in principle, but in this case I think there is some hope, as there has only been one changed variable (the speaker).

Although perhaps "hope" is an apt choice of word, as we don't have measurements for either speaker nor even know which speakers they are at this point ;)
 
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Muses

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^

andreasmaaan
I see your point. Well I hope you designers work on identifying fatigue/hurting precipitants with more certainty. There is a lot of substandard equipment out there being marketed as super deluxe. If such problems were more easily and certainly identifiable that might contribute to higher quality.
 

andreasmaaan

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andreasmaaan
I see your point. Well I hope you designers work on identifying fatigue/hurting precipitants with more certainty. There is a lot of substandard equipment out there being marketed as super deluxe. If such problems were more easily and certainly identifiable that might contribute to higher quality.

Which speakers are they, actually? Maybe we can find measurements of them online. It would be interesting to see.
 
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Muses

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I'm always in favor of research, but this avenue likely leads nowhere, because it's about idiosyncratic combinations: loudspeaker + listener, loudspeaker + listener + room, and so on.

Fatigue and hurting ears are different things - fatigue means tiredness, which can indeed result from continued assault by prominent frequencies the individual finds uncomfortable, but can also happen with the mellowest systems if cabinet resonances and room modes and flutter echo are impairing intelligibility to the point where the brain has to work hard to extract coherent meaning.

I believe loudspeakers can largely be evaluated by measurement suites alone, but for some purposes - like yours - measurements won't solve the problem, because your room is unknown, as are the frequencies that hurt you the worst, and so on.
I'm always in favor of research, but this avenue likely leads nowhere, because it's about idiosyncratic combinations: loudspeaker + listener, loudspeaker + listener + room, and so on.

Fatigue and hurting ears are different things - fatigue means tiredness, which can indeed result from continued assault by prominent frequencies the individual finds uncomfortable, but can also happen with the mellowest systems if cabinet resonances and room modes and flutter echo are impairing intelligibility to the point where the brain has to work hard to extract coherent meaning.

I believe loudspeakers can largely be evaluated by measurement suites alone, but for some purposes - like yours - measurements won't solve the problem, because your room is unknown, as are the frequencies that hurt you the worst, and so on.
It could be my ears, the room or what not, but I'm not sure it is scientific to assume such things, and not consider alternative explanations such as something inherent in some poorly designed speakers.
 

Inner Space

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I agree in principle, but in this case I think there is some hope, as there has only been one changed variable (the speaker).

I'm always in favor of hope too, especially this year, but the best anyone can do is identify what works for their ears in their room. They can't then go on to proclaim they've found a universal truth about listening fatigue. Rooms are distinct, and maybe some folks are bothered by pitches the rest of us aren't. I think "listening fatigue" is the obverse of "taste", in a way - inevitably idiosyncratic.
 
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Muses

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Which speakers are they, actually? Maybe we can find measurements of them online. It would be interesting to see.
OK. I didn't want to give the brand and model at first to avoid any possible irrelevant tangents. The ones that hurt my ears were Energy 2.2i.
 

andreasmaaan

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OK. I didn't want to give the brand and model at first to avoid any possible irrelevant tangents. The ones that hurt my ears were Energy 2.2i.

Thanks. And the ones that don't hurt your ears?
 
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