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windows and audio drivers

rebbiputzmaker

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If there was something unique in amirs test setup that was causing these side bands would we not be expecting to see them present in other DACs tested?

I think we can rule out the driver being a issue as they show up on toslink and I belive that comes straight out of the AP.

It does not seem that complicated of a setup , just what is there that could be so wrong but cause such a tiny issue while leaving otherwise impressive measurement results .

It would be nice to test another one, maybe one that’s a known quantity.
Thank you Thomas,

My point is not necessarily about the testing, but the general circumstance of driver install difficulty. It seems rather unlikely that any manufacturer would provide a driver that cannot be installed. These situations usually come about due to OS settings or problems/damage within the operating system. Windows has compatibility mode settings which also allows installation of legacy drivers. Is this a driver signature problem, this could be updated usually by a manufacturer if necessary. It just seems hard to understand how this is an ongoing problem. When one understands an operating system and how it operates under the hood, modifications of the registry can also be done. I doubt this will be necessary as again how could a manufacturer provide a driver that cannot be installed.

regards
 

amirm

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It just seems hard to understand how this is an ongoing problem.
Don't confuse excuses for problems. No one comes here to know how I use a device in Windows. They want to know the measurements. If the measurements are different with ASIO4ALL vs native drivers, then someone can demonstrate that. Until then, I am getting exemplary and high resolution measurements that are simply not possible with any software messing with the bits.

When one understands an operating system and how it operates under the hood, modifications of the registry can also be done. I doubt this will be necessary as again how could a manufacturer provide a driver that cannot be installed.
This "one" understands the OS. And knows enough to tell you that what you just said is totally incorrect. You can't mess with a registry entry to uninstall things. Where do you get stuff like this? A full install of a driver will leave a large footprint in the OS. You cannot manually undo it that way.
 
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rebbiputzmaker

rebbiputzmaker

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amirm

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Done this for years. You can do anything and everything within the reg. Removing files and dirs are only part of it. The reg controls the OS, applications and devices within the system.
It does but you have no idea what has been modified/added in the install script of the driver. Reverse engineering it that is a very difficult task. Don't confuse reading a KB telling you change a registry word for a setting to totally removing everything that has been changed by an install.

But sure, why don't you do a driver install and then walk us through what you modify in the registry to completely remove it since you say you know how to do that.
 
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rebbiputzmaker

rebbiputzmaker

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But sure, why don't you do a driver install and then walk us through what you modify in the registry to completely remove it since you say you know how to do that.
Not a lot of time due to congregational responsibilities.

A program that IMO is helpful with Windows issues and provides an improved Windows audio experience is Audiophile Optimizer.

https://www.highend-audiopc.com/audiophile-optimizer
 

SIY

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A program that IMO is helpful with Windows issues and provides an improved Windows audio experience is Audiophile Optimizer.

Sound Quality:
- Analog sound quality rarely heard before on computer audio systems
- Bigger soundstage, holographic imaging, more 3D-effect
- Very well defined bass, deeper and more powerful
- Lifelike, fluid and very precise sound reproduction
- Natural air, timbre and image density
- Ability to fine-tune the final sound presentation (through Sound
Signatures and Digital-Filter modes) to achieve outstanding balance
- Sound Signatures and Digital-Filter modes are 100% bit perfect
- Minimizes harshness in digital sound
- Very low noise floor / blacker backgrounds
- Don't believe it? Read the REVIEWS

Seems a bit dubious.


 

gvl

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Man, each bullet screams it is another audiophile snake oil. Bit-perfect digital filters, I smell Schiit?
 
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rebbiputzmaker

rebbiputzmaker

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More than dubious. A bunch of lay assumptions about how audio system really works.
You seem to like the word "lay". Anything you disagree with just becomes a lay opinion or someone is a layman. When one stops learning, they cease to exist.
 

andreasmaaan

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@rebbiputzmaker, what do you think the technical reasons are for these analogue systems sounding better? I think it's nice distortion.
 

raband

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what do you think the technical reasons are for these analogue systems sounding better? I think it's nice distortion.

I'd say it's more the lighter wallet making the bum of the seat testing feel less padded and rich
 

amirm

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You seem to like the word "lay". Anything you disagree with just becomes a lay opinion or someone is a layman. When one stops learning, they cease to exist.
Let's test if you want to learn.

A common assumption in these optimizers is that less is more. In other words, the less activity must somehow make the DAC perform better. Let's say the DAC is poorly designed such that it eats up the computer noise. You have two choices:

1. 1000 times a second something happens.

2. 1000,000 times a second something happens.

Which is better? Lay assumption about audio says #1. Less is more.

Wrong! 1000 times a second generates a frequency in the audible band. It can for example create clock jitter to the tune of +- 1,000. So your 2 Khz note now has a sideband at 1000 Hz and another at 3000 kHz. Compare that with the 1,000,000 time activity. It is occuring so fast that it will appear as noise. Noise is much more benign than generating correlated distortions as #1 does.

Remember, I test all of these DACs using my laptop that is also driving the audio analyzer. The analyzer software for APx555 is a huge CPU hog, so much so that it cooks my laptop. It uses tremendous amount of CPU cycles and lots of traffic on the USB bus. Yet, we are able to achieve measurements that are unbelievably clean with well designed hardware. No audio tuner is needed or necessary.

Anything that is designed to plug into a computer must assume that it has unknown ability to interfere with the DAC. Design the DAC well and what the computer does is immaterial.

None of this is known to people who don't know how DACs work, psychoacoustics, signal processing, etc. They are using lay assumption of making things quieter in the PC with no confirmation I might add, to make decisions that are just wrong.

The tuner software cripples the computer from functionality point of view making it much harder to use. All for misguided reasoning.
 
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rebbiputzmaker

rebbiputzmaker

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@rebbiputzmaker, what do you think the technical reasons are for these analogue systems sounding better? I think it's nice distortion.
Hi, When you say analog systems if you are referring to the use of the optimizer software mentioned, I would not call it distortion. The feature set is much larger than the few posted here for the usual scrutiny.
 

Wombat

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You seem to like the word "lay". Anything you disagree with just becomes a lay opinion or someone is a layman. When one stops learning, they cease to exist.

Post your electronic/electrical and computer creds( often claimed but so far they have been a secret as per The Donalds's tax returns) and they can be compared to Amir's which are up-front on this forum.

RE congregational 'busyness' just get a lay-person to fill-in for a bit so they can learn some. It is called delegation. :rolleyes:
 
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rebbiputzmaker

rebbiputzmaker

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Let's test if you want to learn.

A common assumption in these optimizers is that less is more. In other words, the less activity must somehow make the DAC perform better. Let's say the DAC is poorly designed such that it eats up the computer noise. You have two choices:

1. 1000 times a second something happens.

2. 1000,000 times a second something happens.

Which is better? Lay assumption about audio says #1. Less is more.

Wrong! 1000 times a second generates a frequency in the audible band. It can for example create clock jitter to the tune of +- 1,000. So your 2 Khz note now has a sideband at 1000 Hz and another at 3000 kHz. Compare that with the 1,000,000 time activity. It is occuring so fast that it will appear as noise. Noise is much more benign than generating correlated distortions as #1 does.

Remember, I test all of these DACs using my laptop that is also driving the audio analyzer. The analyzer software for APx555 is a huge CPU hog, so much so that it cooks my laptop. It uses tremendous amount of CPU cycles and lots of traffic on the USB bus. Yet, we are able to achieve measurements that are unbelievably clean with well designed hardware. No audio tuner is needed or necessary.

Anything that is designed to plug into a computer must assume that it has unknown ability to interfere with the DAC. Design the DAC well and what the computer does is immaterial.

None of this is known to people who don't know how DACs work, psychoacoustics, signal processing, etc. They are using lay assumption of making things quieter in the PC with no confirmation I might add, to make decisions that are just wrong.

The tuner software cripples the computer from functionality point of view making it much harder to use. All for misguided reasoning.

Your functionality comment and being harder to use (harder than what) is really not applicable if you intend to dedicate a system for music, as many serious users tend to do. Maybe you can read a bit because there are many more features than the few mentioned, such as driver compatibility and install, device priority, the use of server software in GUI and core mode. Here are some more features.

300+ optimizations with focus on the best music reproduction possible
- Disable unnecessary system services and drivers
- Optimization of your hard drive and file system
- Optimization of USB & PCIe power management
- Optimized power and performance settings
- Optimized CPU and memory management
- Optimization of task & IRQ priorities
- Optimization of TCP/IP protocol
- WASAPI/MMCSS optimization
- USB Optimization
- Additional registry tuning
- Optimization of GUI settings

Of course, you will insist none of this matters.

When it gets to this level of computer audio, some might consider you a "layperson. YMMV.
 
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rebbiputzmaker

rebbiputzmaker

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Post your electronic/electrical and computer creds(so far they have been a secret as per The Donalds's tax returns) and they can be compared to Amir's.
Sorry, this is not a CV (which often times actually tells little) contest. smh lol
If you think that is all that matters, it is rather sad IMO.

Something that one should understand in life, there is always someone smarter, stronger, faster, quicker... etc. At the end of the day, we can all learn from anyone at any time. That is if you are humble enough to want to.
 

amirm

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Your functionality comment and being harder to use (harder than what) is really not applicable if you intend to dedicate a system for music, as many serious users tend to do. Maybe you can read a bit because there are many more features than the few mentioned, such as driver compatibility and install, device priority, the use of server software in GUI and core mode. Here are some more features.

300+ optimizations with focus on the best music reproduction possible
- Disable unnecessary system services and drivers
- Optimization of your hard drive and file system
- Optimization of USB & PCIe power management
- Optimized power and performance settings
- Optimized CPU and memory management
- Optimization of task & IRQ priorities
- Optimization of TCP/IP protocol
- WASAPI/MMCSS optimization
- USB Optimization
- Additional registry tuning
- Optimization of GUI settings

Of course, you will insist none of this matters.

When it gets to this level of computer audio, some might consider you a "layperson. YMMV.
Take caution in our tone. Your time will be limited this way.

I can walk through everything they have done and explain what it is and why it doesn't matter. I already explained a bunch in my post you quoted. You said learning is good. Did you learn something or ignore it all?

And why don't you explain what the USB optimization is above. Or TCP/IP. Pick any of the list above and explain how it improves audio performance.
 
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rebbiputzmaker

rebbiputzmaker

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Take caution in our tone. Your time will be limited this way.

I can walk through everything they have done and explain what it is and why it doesn't matter. I already explained a bunch in my post you quoted. You said learning is good. Did you learn something or ignore it all?

And why don't you explain what the USB optimization is above. Or TCP/IP. Pick any of the list above and explain how it improves audio performance.
There was really nothing, no tone, or nothing meant other than trying to present some info. Nothing personal. The original mention of the software was just as another perspective, not for an argument. Nor support of the feature set, other than the thought that it may help people with installing drivers that cause problems. What you posted was very clear informative easy to understand and valid.
 

Wombat

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There was really nothing, no tone, or nothing meant other than trying to present some info. Nothing personal. The original mention of the software was just as another perspective, not for an argument. Nor support of the feature set, other than the thought that it may help people with installing drivers that cause problems. What you posted was very clear informative easy to understand and valid.

"not for argument"? Are you stifling discussion as you have bemoaned other posters.? :facepalm:
 

Krunok

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300+ optimizations with focus on the best music reproduction possible
- Disable unnecessary system services and drivers
- Optimization of your hard drive and file system
- Optimization of USB & PCIe power management
- Optimized power and performance settings
- Optimized CPU and memory management
- Optimization of task & IRQ priorities
- Optimization of TCP/IP protocol
- WASAPI/MMCSS optimization
- USB Optimization
- Additional registry tuning
- Optimization of GUI settings

Of course, you will insist none of this matters.

As I'm typing this text my notebook is playing a 4K video file with video bitrate of 51Mb/s and audio bitrate of 2.7Mb/s. My notebook is Lenovo Ideapad 700-15ISK, so it's not really a powerhouse. It has latest version of Windows 10 64 bit with no optimisation done whatsoever. It's fetching video file from a NAS over a 5GHz Wifi network using ASUS external WiFi USB stick. And not a single glitch. Playing 4K video with DTS multichannel 48kHz audio is much more demanding than playing 2 channel PCM or even HiRes audio, so yeah, none of those things you listed really matter.

Btw, I'm uploading this for you, hopefully it will help you:

 
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