Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[Great Sun Jester]

I am with you - after reading all the ART threads and other information available, no clue whatsoever as to how it that going to work for my system. I guess that is just what is out there and there won't be much more. Many people are trying to adjust their systems for ART support but I have no idea on which basis are they doing that.

Trial and error?

 

[Frank207be]

I am with you - after reading all the ART threads and other information available, no clue whatsoever as to how it that going to work for my system. I guess that is just what is out there and there won't be much more. Many people are trying to adjust their systems for ART support but I have no idea on which basis are they doing that.

I didn't take any chance and went big. At least with DLBC I have all the bass I can ever wish for. And ART threads also say it only gets better so I'm quite confident.

 

[Oddball]

Sorry but what it really means went big? My relatively big system is not DLBC as that is IMO not really optimal for systems that can do more than just support around the crossover.

 

[apgood]

In this guide they specify:

Controls the amount of support the speakers in this groups gives to the main speaker.
-1 dB will contribute a minimal amount, -24 dB will contribute a maximal amount.

Default is -18dB. So that would be strength of cancelation. Hence coming back to my original question - since some already indicated first sub gets LFE and rest are doing support work (not dissimilar to current DL bass management) - having small capable subwoofers (kc62) close to you (<1m) might perhaps do the trick? They would have enough output to handle -18db under 80Hz (and remain non localizable, since Dirac mentions close support speakers should have a lower level setting)

Support speakers don't necessarily just cancel they can also support by filling in dips/Nulls. Being in a different position to the speaker that they are supporting means they are affected by different room modes and therefore their response may not have a room mode dip / null in the same part of their frequency range as the speaker they are supporting.

The Active cancellation it just to improve decay time and only part of what ART does.

 

[Frank207be]

Sorry but what it really means went big? My relatively big system is not DLBC as that is IMO not really optimal for systems that can do more than just support around the crossover.

4 subs across the room that are capable of delivering >110 dB at all support frequencies.

 

[pogo]

Up to 150Hz/(300Hz)?

 

[Frank207be]

Up to 150Hz/(300Hz)?

Passive sealed DIY with no LPF applied. Only the AVR does the crossover. I'm really curious if/how ART will fully utilize them. My main speakers are also 100% ART compatible. My surround speakers are the weak 'support' link though but I'm looking for other solutions IF they could have a significant impact but that can only be tested once ART finally gets released.

 

[pogo]

All speakers are useful in the ART setup and should be as potent as possible.

 

[Frank207be]

That's why I'm considering adding separate passive subs to my surround speakers and drive both with a Hypex FA502

 

[Daka]

I am with you - after reading all the ART threads and other information available, no clue whatsoever as to how it that going to work for my system. I guess that is just what is out there and there won't be much more. Many people are trying to adjust their systems for ART support but I have no idea on which basis are they doing that.

And I’m with you. A lot of people getting “ready” now and we don’t actually understand it. Art itself is still not finished product - still in progress still a bit of beta version. There isn’t any good guidance available that would say for best performance you need this this and that. Way too soon. From that perspective I’m don’t have a FOMO. I will gladly wait for this to mature to the point where it can guarantee better performance and come with clear guidance what’s expected of the equipment for good results. Only few will go all berserk with towers all around and subs in every corner. I want to know what’s best value approach. For that it seems will have to wait - as I don’t think even Dirac nor StormAudio even knows. It seems current release is public beta test. Perhaps delay from D&M, based on rumor, is because of it.

 

[pogo]

It's clear to me. Potent fullrange speakers and you are fine, also for later ART extension >150Hz.

 

[Oddball]

I do have 6 towers with 10" woofer, and had them for 15-ish years, center is newer and also good to 30hz at 0dB at calibrated 75dB volume. Around 3kW of amps to run 7.4.4 system. Have 4 pretty good subs with 6 13.8" drivers and almost 5kW of amps. Pretty solid fire-power and core of the system was built way before ART.

However, my problem is that even with all this cross-speaker support, I am borderline SPL sufficient in 6,000 cft loft using all the bass management enhancements currently available (Audy LFE+Main overlap for bed channels, LFE distribution to 6 towers, Storm bass management would also have both options without DLBC,). Not really looking to acquire any more subs, apart from potentially KEF KF92 to place it on top of the nearfield (1 foot from MLP) Arendal 1723 2V. Loft is multi-purpose and already looks like speaker and sub storage, so will not be acquiring more stuff as also have a life to live in that loft. Still setting this all up and not fully done, but the bass is pretty amazing as is. Could use some decay reduction below 40hz, and have some SPL there to sacrifice (as there are room rattling limits that I can trigger and surpass by far), but not really looking to sacrifice any SPL above 50hz and response in that area is tight and precise as is.

While interested in ART, and that was one of the reasons to get AV-10, I do wonder how much better it will get compared to what I already have. Once I finalize the sub placement, will do further optimization with REW filters imported to Audy, and that should take care of the remaining few issues that are not taken care by Audy itself. Storm does not have Audy option, but does have PEQ with ability to import REW filters, so ultimately with a bit more work can do the same thing. These are "big system" bass management options today, so would be great to understand how ART works with those. DLBC is made for bookshelves and subs so to the extent that people have such systems, DLBC vs. ART is the relevant comparison.

 

[tjcinnamon]

And I’m with you. A lot of people getting “ready” now and we don’t actually understand it. Art itself is still not finished product - still in progress still a bit of beta version. There isn’t any good guidance available that would say for best performance you need this this and that. Way too soon. From that perspective I’m don’t have a FOMO. I will gladly wait for this to mature to the point where it can guarantee better performance and come with clear guidance what’s expected of the equipment for good results. Only few will go all berserk with towers all around and subs in every corner. I want to know what’s best value approach. For that it seems will have to wait - as I don’t think even Dirac nor StormAudio even knows. It seems current release is public beta test. Perhaps delay from D&M, based on rumor, is because of it.

Yeah, not much to get ready for. Given how bad their recent implementation of DLBC has been.

I think people are overestimating how much is necessary to bring down the decay times through cancelation. Any decently woofer like 6.5” and above can help to support. Any thing bigger than an 8” With some decent excursion will help tame. It’s playing very low volumes down low so it can work within the natural rolloff of the speaker. This was literally designed with surround sound speakers in mind.

But yes, it’s not fully vaporware but it doesn’t look until early 2025 to move to Denon/Marantz

 

[Oddball]

2025 D&M ART implementation will upset many anxious ART wanna-bees, so definitely not good news as the amount of whining on the forums is about to get unbearable.

My recommendation for Dirac is that they incorporate/allow Storm and D&M bass management system into ART and apply ART after those. Otherwise they would be doing half a job they should. ART should be more than DLBC+cancelations.

 

[just1n]

Passive sealed DIY with no LPF applied. Only the AVR does the crossover. I'm really curious if/how ART will fully utilize them. My main speakers are also 100% ART compatible. My surround speakers are the weak 'support' link though but I'm looking for other solutions IF they could have a significant impact but that can only be tested once ART finally gets released.

Before presupposing which speakers you have are “100% ART compatible” I would exercise restraint by not adding speakers to you setup.

Choose your speaker layout, how much you are willing to spend per speaker, and one, or better two, identical subwoofers. I think your best bet is to ensure you buy the best performing speakers within your budget and needs. After that, let whatever room correction software you choose do its thing.

Starting with Dirac ART, with what limited understanding/experience exists, and working backward to pick loudspeakers seems futile and speculative.

Summary: Start with good speakers and you have the best chance to meet whatever goals you have after that.

 

[Dj7675]

ART should be more than DLBC+cancelations.

But it is more… There are no defined crossovers between subs/speakers. Instead of specifying crossovers you define the level of support you speakers can support. I think this is often overlooked and underestimated how important this is. It is completely different than DLBC or how sub/speaker integration is normally done.

 

[Frank207be]

Before presupposing which speakers you have are “100% ART compatible” I would exercise restraint by not adding speakers to you setup.

Choose your speaker layout, how much you are willing to spend per speaker, and one, or better two, identical subwoofers. I think your best bet is to ensure you buy the best performing speakers within your budget and needs. After that, let whatever room correction software you choose do its thing.

Starting with Dirac ART, with what limited understanding/experience exists, and working backward to pick loudspeakers seems futile and speculative.

Summary: Start with good speakers and you have the best chance to meet whatever goals you have after that.

Assuming that an f3 of 24Hz is sufficient to cope with most room modes and that the speakers are 92dB/1W/1m I'm quite confident

The Inner Ear Magazine - Discover High End

In the near future I'll try to build my own DIY LCR speakers. If I fail miserably I can always fall back to the Focal.

 

[Oddball]

Well, what about Fsiso? How that comes into play? This was already linked above.

https://www.dirac.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/DiracLiveActiveRoomTreatment-SetupGuide-1.pdf

 

[Frank207be]

I do have 6 towers with 10" woofer, and had them for 15-ish years, center is newer and also good to 30hz at 0dB at calibrated 75dB volume. Around 3kW of amps to run 7.4.4 system. Have 4 pretty good subs with 6 13.8" drivers and almost 5kW of amps. Pretty solid fire-power and core of the system was built way before ART.

However, my problem is that even with all this cross-speaker support, I am borderline SPL sufficient in 6,000 cft loft using all the bass management enhancements currently available (Audy LFE+Main overlap for bed channels, LFE distribution to 6 towers, Storm bass management would also have both options without DLBC,). Not really looking to acquire any more subs, apart from potentially KEF KF92 to place it on top of the nearfield (1 foot from MLP) Arendal 1723 2V. Loft is multi-purpose and already looks like speaker and sub storage, so will not be acquiring more stuff as also have a life to live in that loft. Still setting this all up and not fully done, but the bass is pretty amazing as is. Could use some decay reduction below 40hz, and have some SPL there to sacrifice (as there are room rattling limits that I can trigger and surpass by far), but not really looking to sacrifice any SPL above 50hz and response in that area is tight and precise as is.

While interested in ART, and that was one of the reasons to get AV-10, I do wonder how much better it will get compared to what I already have. Once I finalize the sub placement, will do further optimization with REW filters imported to Audy, and that should take care of the remaining few issues that are not taken care by Audy itself. Storm does not have Audy option, but does have PEQ with ability to import REW filters, so ultimately with a bit more work can do the same thing. These are "big system" bass management options today, so would be great to understand how ART works with those. DLBC is made for bookshelves and subs so to the extent that people have such systems, DLBC vs. ART is the relevant comparison.

Loved the line about speaker and sub storage. I'm trying to do the opposite: blend all subs into a decoupled riser to get the cinema feeling withouth overloading the interior with boxes.

 

[IamJF]

Loft is multi-purpose and already looks like speaker and sub storage,

Seems like you need an acoustic concept and a good, transparent screen first ;-)
You can hide most of your tech with a big screen and some nice ceiling panels - watching and listening experience also improves when there are no speakers, just the music.