Anyone had like a $800 turntable and upgraded to a $2,000 plus turntable and notice much difference?

[Revelation Sound]

If you used the same cartridge and phono amp, I am wondering how much of a difference would you notice between a mid level turntable and a higher end turntable. I would think part of the difference would be less vibrations? Hence the reason I purchased a Isoacoustic zaZen vibration reduction table for my turntable.

 

[Jimshoe]

I look upon my 'turntable years' like the dark ages. Full of superstition and poorly informed thinking. Now I've seen the light I understand what madness it was.

 

[sergeauckland]

If you used the same cartridge and phono amp, I am wondering how much of a difference would you notice between a mid level turntable and a higher end turntable. I would think part of the difference would be less vibrations? Hence the reason I purchased a Isoacoustic zaZen vibration reduction table for my turntable.

Assuming that both turntables have adequately low levels of wow&flutter and rumble, and using the same arm& cartridge, any difference then comes down largely to the different amounts and frequency characteristic of isolation from the environment and feedback suppression. These are not anything that will be dependent on price.

An interesting exercise is to make a recording of an LP off the above two different turntables, but with the loudspeakers muted and then listen to the recordings. Any differences between turntables tend to be very small indeed.

Another interesting exercise is to put the stylus down on a stationary LP and play a CD fairly loudly, whilst recording the output of the phono stage. The CD playing will be heard on the recording, the level and quality of the recording will then depend on the different types of isolation.

S.

 

[DVDdoug]

Probably no difference. I don't "play records" anymore but I rarely had "vibration" problems. Maybe in some situations/setups with wood floors it would pick-up footsteps. Otherwise, I never had ANY real-issues with any halfway decent turntable. I never heard rumble or wow or flutter from a turntable that wasn't broken.

Every time I changed or upgraded the cartridge I think I heard a "difference" but I never did any proper A/B listening. Nowadays I'm more skeptical about my hearing. It's easy to convenience yourself that you're hearing a difference, especially if you can't immediately A/B.

And then if you do hear a difference it's easy to convenience yourself that it's an improvement! A brighter cartridge (more high-frequency output) might be "clearer" or if the new cartridge has slightly rolled-off highs it might be "smoother".

I also had some phono preamps that were noisier than others, and I built one with an accidental bass boost in the RIAA curve.

 

[JeffS7444]

If you used the same cartridge and phono amp, I am wondering how much of a difference would you notice between a mid level turntable and a higher end turntable. I would think part of the difference would be less vibrations? Hence the reason I purchased a Isoacoustic zaZen vibration reduction table for my turntable.

No need to guess, test it! Lower the stylus onto a stationary record and do spectral analysis. If you see no significant differences with and without the "isolation platform", there's a good chance that your money could have been better spent elsewhere.

My own non-suspended turntable picks up mostly subsonic energy (<30 Hz) from the environment, and I think it's unlikely that platform of yours will have much effect there. This is where I'd expect a suspended design like the AR XA, or one of the old Mitch Cotter plinths for Technics SP10 to make a more meaningful difference. But AR turntable prices have skyrocketed in recent years, and the Mitch Cotter plinth was a large and unwieldy thing, so I do the next best thing: I use a phono preamp which incorporates subsonic filtering.

 

[Revelation Sound]

I won't be able to test it. Most responses have been people not really into turntables so far. I have a Dual CS 5000 turntable with grado cartridge. I could get a Rega Planar 6 turntable with mm cartridge so I can still use my mm phono preamp in my NAD preamp. Thinking this maybe a good option without going to higher costly turntables like a VPI Scout 21 and cartridge which would be at least $1,000 more.

 

[USER]

Turntable technology peaked in the mid-80s. The advent of CD and digital meant that R&D evaporated. The so-called "high-end" turntables today do not compare to what you could get back then. Look at specifications if you don't believe me and be wary of anything without them.

Here are some wow and flutter measurements for my old Clearaudio Concept:

It's nothing special, and frankly poor compared to something from the 1980s. This is a $2300 turntable. Sign up at vinylengine and download the manual for your Dual. The specs are probably better. (But this doesn't mean it can't be cleaned and serviced for optimal performance.) That said, this should all be inaudible. Some people say under 0.1% and others under 0.06% are the limits of human hearing.

Here is a Sony PS-X50 I got for $80. I am in the middle of a restoration and it will improve. This is it still "off."

If you want something "good" these days you are going to have to get a Technics direct drive turntable. They are expensive now. But is it worth it?

This returns us to your question: that depends on many different things. Is your tonearm compatible with your cartridge (in terms of effective mass and compliance, for example)? How are you loading your set-up? Does your phono preamp allow you robust loading options or is it simply set to 47k ohms for example? These things affect the frequency response, which will alter what you hear. If you aren't thinking of these things you probably just want to buy something shiny and new. Isolation matters too as mentioned, but its issues are generally more obvious. More, Rega is not the way to go if that is an issue. The turntables are light and rigid.

This all being said, the medium doesn't compare to properly done digital. It's compromised and becoming obsessed with performance is a fool's errand simply because it'll never be perfect, there are too many things that can go wrong from a dried out belt to an off-center record. This doesn't mean you shouldn't try to learn about it. There are even a handful of members here with extraordinary set-ups, but they REALLY know what they are doing. I myself engage in the technical discussions here (and stay the hell away from the why is vinyl better than digital conversations).

In the end though, I think vinyl is "good enough" and is certainly enjoyable, but don't look under the hood if you are a romantic about it. I am not going to hate on anyone for spending $2000 for a fancy turntable. Aesthetics are important too. But you aren't going to get anything that is a noticeable difference. (Though the speed stability of a proper direct drive can be worth it.)

Edit: This is all assuming you have a reasonably decent turntable to begin with. The market today is so damn awful and comprised of cheap crap churned out for a quick buck. Most are made from the same parts. I recently had to purchase a new turntable for a family member and was struck by the poor measurements of turntables under $400-$500--the stuff that gets recommended in popular sources. The specs of these would be considered poor in the late 1970s. I would certainly expect any higher priced turntable to sound better than these. The cheapest turntable I can recommend is the Denon DP-400, which is $500! Otherwise I'd encourage anyone to buy a well-spec'ed vintage turntable from a reputable source because this new stuff is not worth the money. In short: upper and middle class have collapsed.

 

[Robin L]

The best turntable I had was $1000 worth of Linn LP-12, Ittok arm, AT HOMCC, Valhalla mods, well set up. And I had turntables worth around that much that didn't perform as well, others that cost much less that performed surprisingly well. But there was a clear distance between that LP-12 and anything ese I've owned.

 

[Thermionics]

I can vouch for the quality of a Technics DD system. I picked up a rebuilt-back-to-spec SP10 Mk2 last year from another forum member and it is the last turntable I'll ever need to buy. Would it measure as well as digital? Probably not, but then again I have 10x the number of albums on LP than on any other format, and I don't need perfect sound forever.

(note - I went from a Technics SL5 --> Rega Planar 3 --> Nottingham Analog Interspace --> Technics SP10 Mk2 over the last 30+ years, and yes, I noticed differences each time, even in cases where the arm and cart made the transition from old to new turntable)

 

[Chrispy]

I doubt you can do it by price point alone. You might get an improvement in what a basic tt provides, other than the arm, in the way of suspension and noise/issues from motor. Arms can vary with cartridge you want to use. Mostly it will be the actual transducer, i.e. the particular cartridge, and whether you need a particular pre-amp setup would depend on that. You can have multiple cartridges but still may need options for changing between them, in arm and pre-amp....it's just a bit fussy in the long run. While I'll keep the same tt I've used almost to 38 years now, and haven't tossed the vinyl collection yet, I just don't use it much...the disadvantages just outweigh the advantages.

 

[Revelation Sound]

I doubt you can do it by price point alone. You might get an improvement in what a basic tt provides, other than the arm, in the way of suspension and noise/issues from motor. Arms can vary with cartridge you want to use. Mostly it will be the actual transducer, i.e. the particular cartridge, and whether you need a particular pre-amp setup would depend on that. You can have multiple cartridges but still may need options for changing between them, in arm and pre-amp....it's just a bit fussy in the long run. While I'll keep the same tt I've used almost to 38 years now, and haven't tossed the vinyl collection yet, I just don't use it much...the disadvantages just outweigh the advantages.

What disadvantages?
I enjoy looking at the album cover and info while I play the record.
Many remastered CDs are too bright and many have little dynamic range. Like the Rolling Stones Exile record from the master, or Yes 90125...I like the sound of the record more than the digital. Granted not all records sound better than digital mind you.

 

[Chrispy]

What disadvantages?
I enjoy looking at the album cover and info while I play the record.
Many remastered CDs are too bright and many have little dynamic range. Like the Rolling Stones Exile record from the master, or Yes 90125...I like the sound of the record more than the digital. Granted not all records sound better than digital mind you.

Play time for one, getting up every 18-20 minutes is annoying (no auto anything on my tt....maybe I should add a lift but just not worth it to bother with my current usage). Cleaning/maintenance of vinyl. Storage space/weight. Subject to poor pressings in a few ways, IGD, general surface noise, etc. Digital stuff I haven't found to have a particular sound signature, sure, some masterings sound better than others. Some bad sounding CDs certainly exist, same for vinyl.

I didn't even like Yes 90125 in any format. Exile I think I have vinyl only, but not one of my favorites either.

Album art is nice, but can draw it up on my pc/tablet and with more background....and can even embed artwork in my FLAC file.

Spending $2k on a tt let alone cartridge/pre-amp etc for cheaply stamped pieces of vinyl, meh.

 

[JeffS7444]

I won't be able to test it. Most responses have been people not really into turntables so far. I have a Dual CS 5000 turntable with grado cartridge. I could get a Rega Planar 6 turntable with mm cartridge so I can still use my mm phono preamp in my NAD preamp. Thinking this maybe a good option without going to higher costly turntables like a VPI Scout 21 and cartridge which would be at least $1,000 more.

Oh, but I was very much into turntables, and at one time or another, owned Rega, Linn (3 times), Oracle, SOTA and a number of others I don't recall at the moment. Sure, have fun interacting with the precision machinery, and the social aspects of browsing LPs in a physical store, but in terms of ultimate fidelity, don't kid yourself.

Lots of people here have been audio fanatics for decades, and many have spent a good deal of $$ on some very elite stuff. But the funny thing about learning the science of sound reproduction is that the more you learn, the more you realize that actual know-how like room measurement / correction can take you places that simply buying ever-more-expensive hardware can never do, and that really good-performing hardware (as in "Good, period", not merely "Good for the price") need not be expensive.

 

[Angsty]

I have two turntables that I use on a regular basis: a $1500 VPI Traveler and a $700 Pioneer PLX-1000. Both work well and, no, the VPI is not “twice” as good as the Pioneer. I like the VPI more for a variety of aesthetic and usability reasons. Both have a sufficient level of quality to do the job well. I do think the VPI does a slightly better job at controlling resonances than the Pioneer, but the direct drive in the Pioneer maintains speed more accurately. However, I have noticed more differences in changes to my cartridges and phonostages than between the two turntables. The variances in the vinyl records themselves (eccentric spindle holes, warps, pressing quality, etc) more than overwhelm the mechanical differences between the two ‘tables, in my experience.

 

[TBone]

If you used the same cartridge and phono amp, I am wondering how much of a difference would you notice between a mid level turntable and a higher end turntable. I would think part of the difference would be less vibrations? Hence the reason I purchased a Isoacoustic zaZen vibration reduction table for my turntable.

... ask a turntable equipment specific question here at asr and inevitably, the very lame analog vs digital comparison ensues, as if analog peeps have never heard good digital in 2022.

big sigh ...

anyway, your question is far to vague, too many variables exist that could alter sq in any different way.

generally ... there r wayyyyyyy more vibrational issues inside a working turntable then from outside environmental factors. a tt motor alone , esp under load, will transmit more energy into the rest of the turntable.

the old static stylus on static turntable trick isn't going to provide you much info otherwise ... other than its level of isolation.

 

[CinDyment]

Objectively, yes, especially w.r.t. cartridge/tone-arm matching, and quality of the tone-arm movement and geometry across the whole record and how it handles slight warps and irregularities. You are painting the pig, but there are different qualities of paint. Once you hit a quality point, it is almost all in the cartridge, and matching of cartridge to phono-amp, cartridge to tone-am and most important of all, setup.

Of course, other than maintenance, I have not spend a dime on my turntable in 15-20 years. Got my forever turn-table and even if I don't turn it on, it is worth it just to look at it.

 

[Chrispy]

Objectively, yes, especially w.r.t. cartridge/tone-arm matching, and quality of the tone-arm movement and geometry across the whole record and how it handles slight warps and irregularities. You are painting the pig, but there are different qualities of paint. Once you hit a quality point, it is almost all in the cartridge, and matching of cartridge to phono-amp, cartridge to tone-am and most important of all, setup.

Of course, other than maintenance, I have not spend a dime on my turntable in 15-20 years. Got my forever turn-table and even if I don't turn it on, it is worth it just to look at it.

You're lost already if just gazing at gear not in actual use excites your pleasure centers All those variances just are not attractive unless you like inconsistency....

 

[TBone]

the old static stylus on static turntable trick isn't going to provide you much info otherwise ... other than its level of isolation

instead, much better tool ...

decade old cell&app = handy accelerometer ... just tap any structure in question and measure at will...

 

[CinDyment]

You're lost already if just gazing at gear not in actual use excites your pleasure centers All those variances just are not attractive unless you like inconsistency....

Except I know it is objectively better. Better isolation, better response to warped records, more consistent FR/distortion across record (based on test record). The Oracle Delphi really is a great piece of kit, and frankly, it is Audio\Engineering porn, so yes, looking at it does excite pleasure centers. W.R.T. objectively better, it replaced a Linn, the original snake oil

 

[dlaloum]

If you used the same cartridge and phono amp, I am wondering how much of a difference would you notice between a mid level turntable and a higher end turntable. I would think part of the difference would be less vibrations? Hence the reason I purchased a Isoacoustic zaZen vibration reduction table for my turntable.

Given all else being equal - no difference....

But - differing materials, differing TT body structure, suspended vs unsuspended designs - these could all impact on the sound, and would be dependent on the room & building in which the TT was being used, in addition to the rack / isolation on which it was standing!

If the rack/room interaction was perfectly isolated, then the body structure and suspension would not be a differentiator (in other words these almost always make a difference.... whether for better or worse depends on the details of your setup!)

There there is the arm - if we assume both arms are from the same type... same length, and same effective mass, and neither arm has fluid damping (or electro-magnetic equivalents) - then no difference...

But if one of the arms was of a different effective mass to the other - then the interaction between arm and cartridge suspension, and the resulting resonant frequency would be changed.... resulting in changed sound... - whether better or worse, depends on which arm suits the cartridge better... if the cartridge were high compliance it would prefer the lower mass arm, if low compliance it would be in favor of the higher mass arm....

What about if one of the arms is a linear tracker !! - oooh - now whichever TT has the Linear tracker, will have reduced distortion at the geometric extremes - basically/typically with a standard tonearm there are 2 minima at which it is perfectly aligned and geometric distortion is minimised... the rest of the record surface has gradually increasing distortion as it gets more distant from the minimal distortion points...
A Linear tracker, will have the same distortion as the minimum points on a standard arm, right across the record...

Reality is, in most cases moving from an $800 to a $2000 turntable will merely be a change - unless you know precisely which weaknesses you are aiming to improve - the end result will be random - There are excellent $800 and $2000 turntables out there, and the synergy between cartridge and arm, as well as table and its mounting rack/floor/environment will typically have a far greater impact on the sound, than the difference between the turntables.... so if the move from the $800 to $2000 TT, moves you from one that does not synergise well with your setup and cartridge, to one that does... you will have a marked improvement.... and if it is the opposite, then your sound quality will equally degrade.

One of the joys and fascination of vinyl, for technically oriented gearhead geeks (like me), is the sheer number of variables involved in getting the best out of it - and much like hot rodding cars, the plebeian origins of the base chassis, can frequently be overcome to result in a high performance TT.... And vice versa, purchasing a ferrari, provides no guarantee of outperforming a properly fettled basic mass market sedan. But it does give you a head start, in that sometimes the engineering is superior in the more expensive TT.... however even that is not guaranteed - there are plenty of boutique manufacturers who charge vastly more, for something which in fact is no better.... and there are many Caveat Emptoriums out there selling these.