Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[beagleman]

That's certainly a valid take from Amir. But of course "better" can be seen as subjective. I've compared vinyl with digital versions, which came from the same original masters, and I could hear differences that one person may find "better" for the digital where another may deem the vinyl "better."

I have heard some claim that, and yeah it makes sense, but have to add.....

I keep having to go back to, subsequently "Ripping" the vinyl version to Digital, results in a perfect replica OF that vinyl sound, hinting that even though we assume or are told it is the same master, that possibly signal manipulation, both intentional and as a result of how records are "Made" alter the actual product on final playback.

So the differences are Still bound to be in the mastering "Stages" or more possibly in how vinyl itself alters the sound on all recordings to some degree.

I still put a lot of faith in the idea that when vinyl is made, the noise of whatever amount is present, is not JUST present, but it is effectively out of phase and "heard" by the listener, maybe even subconsciously heard, not as a Mono component, but as a wide out of phase stereo "Noise signal".

Combine that and bass summing and rumble being out of phase, it creates a huge false ambiance, that maybe not extremely audible, but is still heard or mixed with the actual music creating a sound stage that we perceive but was never on the original music.

When one "Mono's"out a record, the (pseudo)ambiance falls flat in a much different way than a CD copy. With headphones, it is far more obvious.

 

[atmasphere]

15-20 db is a HUGE amount.....!

Is there anything linking to actual playback tests/measurements showing this amount of Surface noise reduction?

Not doubting your anecdotal experience, but even 10db is quite a bit of reduction in noise,.....15-20 would be unreal almost!

Yes, it is pretty amazing.
I've not seen any measurements but the test pressings we got back were the quietest we'd seen from any pressing plant.Tests we go back from RTI, who did a lot of the high end recordings produced in the 1980s and 90s, is a distant 2nd by comparison.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

creating a sound stage

"In which the music 'hangs' so tranquile and beautyfully. With everything in its right place". While with digital, the music is just there.
I have a few albums both on vinyl and cd and find the cd's sound better. Also easier and less wear. Though I can imagine that someone prefers vinyl, how important is the sound difference? It can also just feel good to play records. Seeing it this way, vinyl could even work as an antidepressant: It requires some activity (mood bettering) especially when a person goes to a real store: walk outside, seeing people, maybe even talk with someone.. Very wholesome. Then come home with anticipation to play the new bought record! Or cd of course, but you don't have to turn a cd around.

 

[levimax]

Combine that and bass summing and rumble being out of phase, it creates a huge false ambiance, that maybe not extremely audible, but is still heard or mixed with the actual music creating a sound stage that we perceive but was never on the original music.

The first time I ever thought about this was after reading one of your posts. Playing around with old "real" mono records and switching between stereo and "mix down to mono" this effect is very obvious even on speakers. The out of phase noise on an LP can sound a lot like "room ambiance" on a live recording and is different than what you would hear on a digital version of the same recording. I think this effect is one of the main audible differences (more audible than many things mentioned like distortion or bass summing) between LP and digital playback. Of course it is an artifact and not on the original recording but it can help explain why some people prefer LP in some cases.

 

[atmasphere]

"In which the music 'hangs' so tranquile and beautyfully. With everything in its right place". While with digital, the music is just there.
I have a few albums both on vinyl and cd and find the cd's sound better. Also easier and less wear. Though I can imagine that someone prefers vinyl, how important is the sound difference? It can also just feel good to play records. Seeing it this way, vinyl could even work as an antidepressant: It requires some activity (mood bettering) especially when a person goes to a real store: walk outside, seeing people, maybe even talk with someone.. Very wholesome. Then come home with anticipation to play the new bought record! Or cd of course, but you don't have to turn a cd around.

A lot depends on the quality and setup of your analog gear! Setup is easily the LP's biggest weak point.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

The first time I ever thought about this was after reading one of your posts. Playing around with old "real" mono records and switching between stereo and "mix down to mono" this effect is very obvious even on speakers. The out of phase noise on an LP can sound a lot like "room ambiance" on a live recording and is different than what you would hear on a digital version of the same recording. I think this effect is one of the main audible differences (more audible than many things mentioned like distortion or bass summing) between LP and digital playback. Of course it is an artifact and not on the original recording but it can help explain why some people prefer LP in some cases.

With stereo recordings too?
One of my mono records: (picture plucked from https://www.ebay.com/itm/204676810110) Sounds better, more spacious on stereo, in spite of more noise than on mono. On the right bottom of the sleeve you can reed about enhancement of the sound when played in stereo, too. Perhaps it also has something to do with small channel (phase) differences of the music, left and right groove being 'nivellated' (sorry if wrongly spelled/'dutchism') on mono?

P.S. The No 5 - 2 'allemande' is one of my favorites.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

A lot depends on the quality and setup of your analog gear! Setup is easily the LP's biggest weak point.

I believe that gladly. It's very delicate and must be very good to compete with digital. I have an old thorens td 166 of a second hand store with shortened cable, a philips gp406 mkIII cartridge with a tonar shibata needle and a musical fidelity v90-lps phono stage. Not top notch, but, like almost everything, a delight on the kef r3 with subwoofer and hypex in between

 

[MattHooper]

I have heard some claim that, and yeah it makes sense, but have to add.....

I keep having to go back to, subsequently "Ripping" the vinyl version to Digital, results in a perfect replica OF that vinyl sound, hinting that even though we assume or are told it is the same master, that possibly signal manipulation, both intentional and as a result of how records are "Made" alter the actual product on final playback.

So the differences are Still bound to be in the mastering "Stages" or more possibly in how vinyl itself alters the sound on all recordings to some degree.

I still put a lot of faith in the idea that when vinyl is made, the noise of whatever amount is present, is not JUST present, but it is effectively out of phase and "heard" by the listener, maybe even subconsciously heard, not as a Mono component, but as a wide out of phase stereo "Noise signal".

Combine that and bass summing and rumble being out of phase, it creates a huge false ambiance, that maybe not extremely audible, but is still heard or mixed with the actual music creating a sound stage that we perceive but was never on the original music.

When one "Mono's"out a record, the (pseudo)ambiance falls flat in a much different way than a CD copy. With headphones, it is far more obvious.

I assume that the general difference in character I hear in vinyl vs digital is due to various combinations of:

1. Different mastering for vinyl
2. Certain types of distortion associated with the vinyl medium, scraping music in to wax and off with a needle etc.
3. Whatever idiosyncrasies are involved in my particular cartridge/turntable/set up.

I think that #2 will likely always be there.

 

[beagleman]

The first time I ever thought about this was after reading one of your posts. Playing around with old "real" mono records and switching between stereo and "mix down to mono" this effect is very obvious even on speakers. The out of phase noise on an LP can sound a lot like "room ambiance" on a live recording and is different than what you would hear on a digital version of the same recording. I think this effect is one of the main audible differences (more audible than many things mentioned like distortion or bass summing) between LP and digital playback. Of course it is an artifact and not on the original recording but it can help explain why some people prefer LP in some cases.

The funny or odd thing, I first realized this, when playing some random "Trip Hop" song many years ago.

The beginning of the song had a sampled section of actual vinyl surface noise, to simulate it sounding "Like" an actual record, and with the music playing over this relatively low level vinyl surface noise.

After a time, the song stopped the record noise and it was just "Straight" music playing the same way as before when combined with the noise, but it was very different sounding in how I perceived the overall sound.

It did not mix down to mono, but simply one section HAD actual surface noise and then after maybe 45 seconds it stopped.

It sounded like like the room sound just vanished when the noise went away!

Sorry NO idea what song it is now, but would love to remember!!

 

[Eric Natural]

Nostalgia is a drug

 

[Ste_S]

It's just cool.

The loudness wars is perhaps the most overblown issue in the history of audio, I don't believe for most people this is actually important. (Nor should it be)

I think more people, as few as there are, are feeling more nostalgic towards the more intimate nature of physical media. Vinyl has a lot of steps from nothing to art, and it's fun.

Then there are those who simply collect it to look at it, like people who collect video games who always keep them sealed and never play. I find such subsets a bit weird, but to each their own.

Regardless, a shelf full of media to me is more appealing than a glorified file picker.

Absolutely yes. Low - HEY WHAT is one of my favourite albums of recent times, and sounds fantastic. It scores '2' on the Loudness Wars website, with some tracks scoring the bottom score of '1'. Which made me realise DR isn't actually that important.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Absolutely yes. Low - HEY WHAT is one of my favourite albums of recent times, and sounds fantastic. It scores '2' on the Loudness Wars website, with some tracks scoring the bottom score of '1'. Which made me realise DR isn't actually that important.i

I don’t know. Pretty much every song on that album would have been improved with quiet flute sections.

That is one of my favorites!

 

[deweydm]

Absolutely yes. Low - HEY WHAT is one of my favourite albums of recent times, and sounds fantastic. It scores '2' on the Loudness Wars website, with some tracks scoring the bottom score of '1'. Which made me realise DR isn't actually that important.

The LP isn’t really an appealing alternative. It’s cut very quiet, and the swells lack much of the drama with less bass. Might have worked as a double LP. Voices still sound lovely, but pretty recessed. Comparing the LP and the version on Apple Music.

Seems like an outlier to me. Biggest difference in volume between LP and stream I’ve ever heard. But I think it has a digitally distorted sound, with almost everything except the vocals, as an intentional artistic expression. And I agree. It’s an amazing album.

Try this level of dynamic compression with most recordings, and the average person might actually notice and start complaining about the ”loudness wars” though.

 

[IPunchCholla]

The LP isn’t really an appealing alternative. It’s cut very quiet, and the swells lack much of the drama with less bass. Might have worked as a double LP. Voices still sound lovely, but pretty recessed. Comparing the LP and the version on Apple Music.

Seems like an outlier to me. Biggest difference in volume between LP and stream I’ve ever heard. But I think it has a digitally distorted sound, with almost everything except the vocals, as an intentional artistic expression. And I agree. It’s an amazing album.

Try this level of dynamic compression with most recordings, and the average person might actually notice and start complaining about the ”loudness wars” though.

I did a needle drop of Days Like These and it is at -23 LUFS. When I bring it up to -13 LUFS (which is the Apple Music Standard), I can't hear much of a difference when I A/B the streaming vs the LP. Subjectively, the LP distortion sounds just a tiny bit muddier, but this isn't blind. I think if I walked into a room, I wouldn't know which is playing.

 

[deweydm]

I did a needle drop of Days Like These and it is at -23 LUFS. When I bring it up to -13 LUFS (which is the Apple Music Standard), I can't hear much of a difference when I A/B the streaming vs the LP. Subjectively, the LP distortion sounds just a tiny bit muddier, but this isn't blind. I think if I walked into a room, I wouldn't know which is playing.

I compared side A and streaming, roughly level matched “by ear”. And it was a huge difference, particularly in the bass frequencies. Now I’m wondering if I was playing the LP without the subwoofer engaged or something. Or was way off on the levels. I’ll do a more careful comparison with side B.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

Nostalgia is a drug

It's as beautifull as mysterious.

The next is hidden, because it could motivate people to take alcohol.

Spoiler

Should old acquaintance be forgot,
and never brought to mind?
Should old acquaintance be forgot,
and auld lang syne?

Chorus
For auld lang syne, my dear,
for auld lang syne,
we'll take a cup of kindness yet,
for auld lang syne.

And surely you'll buy your pint cup!
and surely I'll buy mine!
And we'll take a cup o' kindness yet,
for auld lang syne.

Chorus

We two have run about the hills,
and picked the daisies fine;
But we've wandered many a weary foot,
since auld lang syne.

Chorus

We two have paddled in the stream,
from morning sun till dine;
But seas between us broad have roared
since auld lang syne.

Chorus

And there's a hand my trusty friend!
And give me a hand o' thine!
And we'll take a right good-will draught,
for auld lang syne.

Chorus

 

[deweydm]

I compared side A and streaming, roughly level matched “by ear”. And it was a huge difference, particularly in the bass frequencies. Now I’m wondering if I was playing the LP without the subwoofer engaged or something. Or was way off on the levels. I’ll do a more careful comparison with side B.

Heh, I’m an idiot. I had the mode on the Phono DSP set to mono summed when doing the comparison yesterday. (Was playing an old Beach Boys ”duophonic“ record earlier yesterday.) And I underestimated the degree I needed to turn it up with the LP to match the volume level of the stream from AM. (About 180 degrees on the volume knob with sound check turned off in AM.) Used a dB meter rather than trying to do it by ear today.

Agree, they are very similar sounding properly level matched (and, doh, both in stereo), but the LP has to be turned up so much, there are no silent intervals during LP playback of Days Like These, during the quieter second half of the song, for example. And some crackle that would be less noticeable at lower levels. I think this is why I was able to get an inexpensive used copy of the LP.

 

[DavidShe]

Will there be Wax Cylinder renaissance?

Is the Wax Cylinder the Next Big Thing?

If we look back over the last 140 years of sound recording, it seems that formats come and formats..

www.linkedin.com

 

[Balle Clorin]

Audionote has Waxrolls as reference.I got it directly in conversations with the founder . No wonder their gear sound like a Wool sock soaked in syrup.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Everything about vinyl is allowed to post here.

Put any vinyl discussion that does not fit specific threads here.