Neutron Hifi DAC V1

[Bow_Wazoo]

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 is a hi-res audio USB DAC device with advanced hardware, software and aesthetic design for pleasing your eyes and ears. It supports up to 32-bit/384 kHz PCM and up to DSD256.Hardware and software design is based on our vast experience in music reproduction accumulated during...

store.neutronhifi.com

Is more information about the hardware known?

 

[mc.god]

Didn't know about it, I started reading bur suddenly my browser crashed as soon as I got to the "We recommend to use Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 with Neutron HiFi™ USB Cables to have guaranteed performance" part.

 

[Robbo99999]

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 is a hi-res audio USB DAC device with advanced hardware, software and aesthetic design for pleasing your eyes and ears. It supports up to 32-bit/384 kHz PCM and up to DSD256.Hardware and software design is based on our vast experience in music reproduction accumulated during...

store.neutronhifi.com

Is more information about the hardware known?

I just found out about this today, as in app advertisement through the Neutron Player app. Seems like a direct competitor to the recently reviewed Topping DAC - well at least in terms of EQ being contained within the device & it's per channel. I posted just now over in the Topping thread but I'll paste it here too:

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 Details

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 technical details, NConfigurator app downloads.

neutronhifi.com

10 band parametric EQ and that's per channel.
User manual here:

https://neutronhifi.com/download/user-manual/Neutron%20HiFi%20DAC%20V1%20User%20Manual%20v1.0.pdf

I think it also offers what they call a Frequency Response Correction (FRC) section too in addition to the 10 band parametric EQ, but I don't know how customisable the FRC section is although it allows download of AutoEQ headphone profiles....that section is fully fully configurable in the Neutron Player app so don't know if that extends to the DAC. So that's following the same "program structure" as Neutron Player the app. In the Neutron Player app you can have both FRC & Parametric EQ active at the same time, but I'm unsure if that's possible in the DAC.

Anyway, didn't know about this Neutron Player DAC until today & thought it offers direct competition to the Topping product. It's £145 here in the UK in the store. Looks like the company used a Precision Audio Analyzer to measure the DAC to create their tech specs, that's what they say.

I can't seem to find when this product launched, but due to scant info on the net, then I think it launched very recently, 10th April is about the earliest page I've seen where this DAC has been mentioned.

 

[Alexander Gödde]

It's a dongle DAC, so less a competitor to the Topping D50 and more one to the Qudelix 5k. Unlike the 5k it has a display, but the 5k includes a battery, Bluetooth and a differential output which provides double the voltage of the Neutron DAC. The Qudelix app is legendary for its range of features, has a good interface and is very stable, plus there's a version running in Chrome. It remains to be seen whether the Neutron DAC can match that.
It's nice to have more options with included EQ, and I look forward to reading reviews, but just from the product page I fail to see how this better matches any of my use cases than the Qudelix 5k.

 

[Robbo99999]

It's a dongle DAC, so less a competitor to the Topping D50 and more one to the Qudelix 5k. Unlike the 5k it has a display, but the 5k includes a battery, Bluetooth and a differential output which provides double the voltage of the Neutron DAC. The Qudelix app is legendary for its range of features, has a good interface and is very stable, plus there's a version running in Chrome. It remains to be seen whether the Neutron DAC can match that.
It's nice to have more options with included EQ, and I look forward to reading reviews, but just from the product page I fail to see how this better matches any of my use cases than the Qudelix 5k.

Is Qudelix per channel EQ too?

 

[Alexander Gödde]

Is Qudelix per channel EQ too?

It did at one time (came with the 2.0 firmware update), but I can't find the option anymore (may just be me, but even if so, it's at least bad UI).

 

[dmitrykos]

Hi Everybody! I can clarify some details being a developer of this device

didn't know about this Neutron Player DAC until today & thought it offers direct competition to the Topping product

Neutron HiFi DAC V1 is wearable/portable USB DAC, so it does not try to compete with like Topping D50 and similar stationary USB DACs by output power (it clear taking into account the device size) but DAC V1 excels in hig-precision output (dual clocking with 2 SPXO chips, careful digital and analog PCB routing, ultra-low noise power supply, in-house firmware guarantees absence of packet loss [can be an issue for many DACs known from Neutron Music Player (NMP) development and support of user cases]).

The idea was to make a very portable (DAC V1 is really small and lightweight) but high-precision audiophile-grade device, therefore there were no compromises for components and materials used for the device.

EQ being contained within the device & it's per channel

Yes, EQ is per channel. It is particularly important for users who need to correct frequency response of one of the channels due to hearing issues (there are users of NMP using its EQ to do the same). The nice thing is that now you can do this correction and listen to different audio sources, not just via NMP, and get similar frequency correction.

It remains to be seen whether the Neutron DAC can match that.

Just a side note, Neutron HiFi DAC V1 will be supported in the way as NMP is developed - users are driving the functionality. So, if some interesting DSP feature is requested and it can be handled by MCU then why not adding it. Therefore at this moment you have this list of features/functionality but it can be extended with time as DAC V1 supports OTA firmware updates with NConfigurator companion app (you likely saw its screenshots in User Manual).

fail to see how this better matches any of my use cases

DAC V1's page is being constantly updated (based on received feedback from users), so usage scenarios were clarified recently in more detail, you could have a look one more time again:
http://neutronhifi.com/devices/dac/v1

If any other questions, I will be glad to clarify.

 

[Jimbob54]

Hi Everybody! I can clarify some details being a developer of this device



Neutron HiFi DAC V1 is wearable/portable USB DAC, so it does not try to compete with like Topping D50 and similar stationary USB DACs by output power (it clear taking into account the device size) but DAC V1 excels in hig-precision output (dual clocking with 2 SPXO chips, careful digital and analog PCB routing, ultra-low noise power supply, in-house firmware guarantees absence of packet loss [can be an issue for many DACs known from Neutron Music Player (NMP) development and support of user cases]).



Yes, EQ is per channel. It is particularly important for users who need to correct frequency response of one of the channels due to hearing issues (there are users of NMP using its EQ to do the same). The nice thing is that now you can do this correction and listen to different audio sources, not just via NMP, and get similar frequency correction.



Just a side note, Neutron HiFi DAC V1 will be supported in the way as NMP is developed - users are driving the functionality. So, if some interesting DSP feature is requested and it can be handled by MCU then why not adding it. Therefore at this moment you have this list of features/functionality but it can be extended with time as DAC V1 supports OTA firmware updates with NConfigurator companion app (you likely saw its screenshots in User Manual).



DAC V1's page is being constantly updated (based on received feedback from users), so usage scenarios were clarified recently in more detail, you could have a look one more time again:
http://neutronhifi.com/devices/dac/v1

If any other questions, I will be glad to clarify.

Thanks for joining the discussion.

Does it / could it have crossfeed capability and l/r balance adjustment?

For me, those 2 functions as well as good 10+ band PEQ are essential to move from a source device DSP solution to a dac based implementation.

 

[TonyJZX]

indeterminent 'flagship' ESS

should be more forthcoming with that stuff

 

[dmitrykos]

Does it / could it have crossfeed capability and l/r balance adjustment?

Crossfeed is supported, as well as Balance. Balance is supported on ESS chip level, e.g. it is lossless operation unlike we usually do it in software.

indeterminent 'flagship' ESS

It is specified in the Details page (scroll to Specification):

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 Details

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 technical details, NConfigurator app downloads.

neutronhifi.com

 

[Jimbob54]

Crossfeed is supported, as well as Balance. Balance is supported on ESS chip level, e.g. it is lossless operation unlike we usually do it in software.



It is specified in the Details page (scroll to Specification):

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 Details

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 technical details, NConfigurator app downloads.

neutronhifi.com

Excellent. Thanks. I'll definitely consider this.

 

[Robbo99999]

Hi Everybody! I can clarify some details being a developer of this device



Neutron HiFi DAC V1 is wearable/portable USB DAC, so it does not try to compete with like Topping D50 and similar stationary USB DACs by output power (it clear taking into account the device size) but DAC V1 excels in hig-precision output (dual clocking with 2 SPXO chips, careful digital and analog PCB routing, ultra-low noise power supply, in-house firmware guarantees absence of packet loss [can be an issue for many DACs known from Neutron Music Player (NMP) development and support of user cases]).

The idea was to make a very portable (DAC V1 is really small and lightweight) but high-precision audiophile-grade device, therefore there were no compromises for components and materials used for the device.



Yes, EQ is per channel. It is particularly important for users who need to correct frequency response of one of the channels due to hearing issues (there are users of NMP using its EQ to do the same). The nice thing is that now you can do this correction and listen to different audio sources, not just via NMP, and get similar frequency correction.



Just a side note, Neutron HiFi DAC V1 will be supported in the way as NMP is developed - users are driving the functionality. So, if some interesting DSP feature is requested and it can be handled by MCU then why not adding it. Therefore at this moment you have this list of features/functionality but it can be extended with time as DAC V1 supports OTA firmware updates with NConfigurator companion app (you likely saw its screenshots in User Manual).



DAC V1's page is being constantly updated (based on received feedback from users), so usage scenarios were clarified recently in more detail, you could have a look one more time again:
http://neutronhifi.com/devices/dac/v1

If any other questions, I will be glad to clarify.

Hi, welcome to the forums! Just on a really general note and to give a bit of praise, if your DAC is as useful/flexible as your Neutron Player software then that'll be a good DAC!

I've got one question about the DAC. Can you implement FRC & Parametric EQ at the same time? For the FRC, is that just limited to a download from AutoEQ, or can you manually configure a set of additional parametric filters that sit within the FRC area - the point I'm getting at is that it sometimes useful to have more than 10 bands of parametric EQ available in total, and if your Parametric EQ section is limited to 10 bands, then I wondered if the FRC section allows you to say have another 10 bands within that area, making a total of say 20 bands of user manually configurable parametric EQ? I know in your Neutron Player software for instance that FRC is really just another section where you can include manually configured parametric EQ, so I figured it might be the same in your DAC? I'm just trying to see ways of having more than 10 bands of parametric EQ.

 

[mc.god]

Hi Everybody! I can clarify some details being a developer of this device



Neutron HiFi DAC V1 is wearable/portable USB DAC, so it does not try to compete with like Topping D50 and similar stationary USB DACs by output power (it clear taking into account the device size) but DAC V1 excels in hig-precision output (dual clocking with 2 SPXO chips, careful digital and analog PCB routing, ultra-low noise power supply, in-house firmware guarantees absence of packet loss [can be an issue for many DACs known from Neutron Music Player (NMP) development and support of user cases]).

The idea was to make a very portable (DAC V1 is really small and lightweight) but high-precision audiophile-grade device, therefore there were no compromises for components and materials used for the device.



Yes, EQ is per channel. It is particularly important for users who need to correct frequency response of one of the channels due to hearing issues (there are users of NMP using its EQ to do the same). The nice thing is that now you can do this correction and listen to different audio sources, not just via NMP, and get similar frequency correction.



Just a side note, Neutron HiFi DAC V1 will be supported in the way as NMP is developed - users are driving the functionality. So, if some interesting DSP feature is requested and it can be handled by MCU then why not adding it. Therefore at this moment you have this list of features/functionality but it can be extended with time as DAC V1 supports OTA firmware updates with NConfigurator companion app (you likely saw its screenshots in User Manual).



DAC V1's page is being constantly updated (based on received feedback from users), so usage scenarios were clarified recently in more detail, you could have a look one more time again:
http://neutronhifi.com/devices/dac/v1

If any other questions, I will be glad to clarify.

Welcome, nice to have a developer here answering our questions.
I see no mention about output stage nor regarding output power at various loads, only Vrms. Can we assume there is no additional op-amp after the ES9219Q and so take nominal power rating of that chip as a reference?

Thumbs up for making the configuration software available also for Linux, something that many manufacturers don't bother with.

 

[dmitrykos]

Hi Robbo99999!

In NMP FRC is the same Parametric EQ effect applied on the master-mixer output of audio engine. Mobile device CPUs are quite powerful, so they can handle computation-intensive tasks quite easily, thus for 10 additional bands (FRC) you do not really notice any power drain on a modern CPU.

In case of DAC V1 situation is a bit more complex because we are limited by the performance of MCU. While it has decent floating-point performance to my view (I was really surprised with it during experiments) 20 bands can probably be supported but at cost of maximum supported sample rate. Currently, if DSP is enabled the PCM sample rate is limited to 192 kHz. For 20 bands, or 10+10 bands, most max supported sample rate will be less, most likely at least 96 kHz (hopefully). Is such scenario still acceptable?

 

[Robbo99999]

Hi Robbo99999!

In NMP FRC is the same Parametric EQ effect applied on the master-mixer output of audio engine. Mobile device CPUs are quite powerful, so they can handle computation-intensive tasks quite easily, thus for 10 additional bands (FRC) you do not really notice any power drain on a modern CPU.

In case of DAC V1 situation is a bit more complex because we are limited by the performance of MCU. While it has decent floating-point performance to my view (I was really surprised with it during experiments) 20 bands can probably be supported but at cost of maximum supported sample rate. Currently, if DSP is enabled the PCM sample rate is limited to 192 kHz. For 20 bands, or 10+10 bands, most max supported sample rate will be less, most likely at least 96 kHz (hopefully). Is such scenario still acceptable?

Hi, yeah, I can understand that there would be less computational power available in a DAC vs a smartphone/PC. Ah, right, so you're saying FRC and Parametric EQ cannot currently be activated at the same time in the DAC? 20 available bands could be useful for Room EQ for speakers if people would want to use the DAC for that, albeit it's probably not the target market of a portable device. There's some situations in headphone EQ where more than 10 bands is useful, albeit most of the time 10 is enough. I understand what you're saying re if there were 20 bands available then max sample rate would be reduced to 96kHz - from my own perspective I don't use more than 48kHz, and only 44kHz when listening to music, so the trade-off having the extra parametric bands would be more useful to me personally. Do people really use 96kHz and above, I suppose it depends on what they think about "Hi-res" music. On a real personal level I'm not in the market for new DAC, if yours was a gaming DAC that could do a very good implementation of Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound and it had all the parametric filter options that you mention then that is something I would definitely buy, but as it currently stands I use software parametric EQ and a Creative Gaming DAC - I'm probably a bit of niche user case!

 

[Bow_Wazoo]

@dmitrykos

Am I correct in assuming, that a V1 is now on its way to Amir?

 

[dmitrykos]

Ah, right, so you're saying FRC and Parametric EQ cannot currently be activated at the same time in the DAC?

Yes, because FRC is using Parametric EQ. FRC is in fact a 10-band EQ preset. In Neutron Player it is running as a separate PEQ DSP because CPU allows it but MCU has lower power, so one of these 2 can be active at a time. I will check though if it can be made as chain of DSP effects (10-band PEQ + FRC) and what max PCM sample rate can be achieved in this case. Can become as an option via NConfigurator if working solution.

 

[dmitrykos]

@dmitrykos

Am I correct in assuming, that a V1 is now on its way to Amir?

Not yet, but ready to provide for the review to Amir of course.

 

[Robbo99999]

Yes, because FRC is using Parametric EQ. FRC is in fact a 10-band EQ preset. In Neutron Player it is running as a separate PEQ DSP because CPU allows it but MCU has lower power, so one of these 2 can be active at a time. I will check though if it can be made as chain of DSP effects (10-band PEQ + FRC) and what max PCM sample rate can be achieved in this case. Can become as an option via NConfigurator if working solution.

Right, thanks for explaining, I understand completely. What you propose as an option via NConfigurator sounds like a very flexible approach from you, so kudos to you for that, in terms of looking into whether you can offer that as an option or not - afterall who wouldn't mind having the flexibility to configure it as 20 bands of EQ and 96kHz limit vs 10 bands and 196kHz limit, which can be set with just a "flick of a switch".

 

[Robbo99999]

Not yet, but ready to provide for the review to Amir of course.

I don't know if @amirm is aware of this thread, but yeah it would be very cool to get your DAC measured! (I don't know if you want to get it reviewed when you've worked out the 20 band EQ vs 10 band EQ options.)