The Case Against OLED

[Sal1950]

The high end of the market isn't geared toward content consumer, but towards creators.

Sort of, but the commercial market has special demands of it's own, as does the consumer end.
Even on the consumer end there are specialty niche like gaming or large screen PC monitors.
All have special needs that may be in direct opposition to each other.

 

[Keith_W]

when it comes to STOA tech, The high end of the market isn't geared toward content consumer, but towards creators.


Eizo ColorEdge CG3146 31" ~$33,000
Sony BVM-HX310 31" ~30,000
Flanders Scientific XMP310 31.5" ~$11,000

That reminds me of an incident in my hospital's trauma unit which was presented in one of the meetings. An MRI scan was done on a patient's spine. The surgical consultant viewed the images on a monitor on the ward, and cleared the spine. The spinal precautions were removed. The report later came from the radiologist saying that there was a spinal fracture. The spinal precautions quickly went back on. Fortunately the patient did not suffer any further injury from the mishap.

During the investigation, the surgeon viewed the images on the radiologist's Eizo monochrome monitor in a darkened room. The fracture was clearly visible. The radiologist then viewed the images on the ward computer. He agreed that he would have said "no fracture". From then on, there was a new policy - no clearing of fractures unless viewed on a calibrated monitor by a person qualified to do so.

I remember asking how much the monitor cost (I had in the back of my mind to equip every ward in the hospital with one). Answer: $10,000. Yikes.

 

[Tell]

Yeah, we need that 8k/120 hz format. Then you will get highly detailed views of films made with anamorphic lenses. This to blur everything other than the center to give it that artistic film look.

Well it would still be sharper in the middle, just as films shot on spherical lenses would only be sharper on what's in focus and not the background. And framerates don't care at all what lens you shoot with, so anamorphic filmed movies WILL be more fluid if shot on higher framerates. So I don't see what's the objection is about?

Here's a real movie scene in real non-upscaled 60 fps:

Yeah that's one of the movies I hinted about earlier. I'm also very much used to 24fps cinema and don't think I'll ever want it to change, but I'd still be interested to see it being done in a movie with a _good_ script (so not written by one of the guys that gave us GoT s08) and a cinematographer that knows what he's doing, so maybe Roger Deakins or Greig Fraser.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Is this thread/discussion about TVs or PC-Monitors?
Each of these types of display panels used to serve different purposes; until HDMI managed to bridge that chasm.

Very good point! So far I was under the (false) impression that we were talking about TVs.
OLEDs have great potential and ability. I would not buy a phone without it, simply because my phone goes on a bedstand wireless charger while doubling as a night clock.
On laptops, the colour and contrast can be superb. Asus makes affordable, decent laptops with OLED.

In the case of OLED PC-monitors; there are a few different use-cases, at the "high end": One serves the gamers' fps appetite... Another use-case has become for the consumption of HD video content.
[I don't think the bitcoin-miners and AI-integrators care as much about their PC-monitors, as they may for their "high end" GPUs and CPUs.]

Not an expert. But I do dabble with movie upscaling using Ai (does that count?). I also tone-map to HDR. A decent calibrated PC monitor with HDR, is a must for me.
Checkout the Kingdom of Heaven clip I posted earlier, that was one of my trial trials.

Do these new class of OLED PC-monitors take care of video rendering/upscaling (w/dedicated processors)?
Or
Do the streamers (OLED@4K+) rely on the built-in graphics of their CPU or are they using a dedicated add-on GPU card?
And what about the problem with burn-in, which may affect an OLED PC-monitor more readily than an OLED TV?

To my knowledge, PC monitors are monitors, they may have some playback capability, but anyone paying for an OLED monitor, would want to use their GPUs engine to render the images.
Regarding burn-ins, that usually is user carelessness. I have never had a phone with a burnt in OLED display! if it should happen anywhere, THAT would be a prime target.

 

[Sal1950]

Regarding burn-ins, that usually is user carelessness. I have never had a phone with a burnt in OLED display! if it should happen anywhere, THAT would be a prime target.

Humm,

The Case Against OLED

how do you know they were calibrated? nothing in the video or in the video description said they are/were calibrated. I will also say it's comical to compare $1500 and $2100 TVs, to one that was $3500 when it was released in 2008 (it would be $4,900 today). Edit: all 3 screens where also...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Rednaxela]

Personally I've been in love with my Samsung QN85QN90B mini-led set since I got it a year ago.
It's black levels are inky black and it's brightness level incredible, fully adequate for bright room viewing of HDR material.
I only have 2 items which I don't find at SOTA levels, it's problem with blooming, and the anti-reflection
screen coating (which was ditched on the 2023 90C models.

Awesome!

The (anti reflection? wider viewing angle?) screen coating has been an issue on the TOTL Sony Mini LED TVs as well. There's quite a number of reports from people returning their TV because of a rainbowing effect that's too distracting. Vincent of HDTVTest shows it in action in his X95K and X95L videos. I believe the upcoming Bravia 7 doesn't have such a layer. We'll have to see about the 9.

Speaking of Vincent, his video on the 2024 Sony TV lineup is very informative too.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Humm,

The Case Against OLED

how do you know they were calibrated? nothing in the video or in the video description said they are/were calibrated. I will also say it's comical to compare $1500 and $2100 TVs, to one that was $3500 when it was released in 2008 (it would be $4,900 today). Edit: all 3 screens where also...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Hmmm
- I also said: I never had any
- I also said: it is user carelessness (max brightness, long long screen time on one object)
- I like to add, I buy cheap Chinese phones!! my current Huawei Mate 20 is a 5 years old, and no burnins.
Is that an OLED screen? what phone was it?

 

[Oddball]

While mini-LED is seriously good nowadays, OLED might still have the overall advantage with its per-pixel abilities, despite the fact it can't go as bright. Have one of each and for my taste what tips the scale to mini-LED is size/immersion. When watching 83" OLED, I do miss the size of the 98" mini-LED, and sometimes the HDR impact that mini-LED has.

 

[DLS79]

Is that an OLED screen? what phone was it?

It was a random one I pulled form the net.

But it doesn't mater every screen type will burn in.

here is an old an old CRT.
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comments/vd7oxu

LCD from wiki

Screen burn-in - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A nearly two-year-old LCD television showing extreme burn-in of CNN's circa 2008 digital on-screen graphic; this television is in a McDonald's restaurant where CNN is permanently turned on and displayed throughout the business day.

 

[EERecordist]

That reminds me of an incident in my hospital's trauma unit which was presented in one of the meetings. An MRI scan was done on a patient's spine. The surgical consultant viewed the images on a monitor on the ward, and cleared the spine. The spinal precautions were removed. The report later came from the radiologist saying that there was a spinal fracture. The spinal precautions quickly went back on. Fortunately the patient did not suffer any further injury from the mishap.

During the investigation, the surgeon viewed the images on the radiologist's Eizo monochrome monitor in a darkened room. The fracture was clearly visible. The radiologist then viewed the images on the ward computer. He agreed that he would have said "no fracture". From then on, there was a new policy - no clearing of fractures unless viewed on a calibrated monitor by a person qualified to do so.

I remember asking how much the monitor cost (I had in the back of my mind to equip every ward in the hospital with one). Answer: $10,000. Yikes.

Thanks for this comment.

Yes, viewing environment accompanies the display device because the eye and brain interact. (AI radiology dealing with bits takes the eye out, that's a different topic)

In movies, color grading has similarities to audio mastering.

In displays calibration is essential. Several companies have display color calibration.

In audio, we have the Audio Engineering Society and medical groups in audiology. In displays, the equivalent science organizations include the Society for Information Display - SID and the Society For Optics & Photonics. SMPTE is in there too. I've been a member of them all at one time! Some larger cities have SID chapters with technical talks to engage.

There is enough money in display development for the masses - flat screens and projectors - to support scientific research to move the field forward.

In displays, the eye, and the brain, as well as color science, there is good math and good measurements.

I'm not going to go back through the whole topic. In my display decisions, I look at source color space, display color space, dynamic range, black level, input formats, and price. I have an Eizo on my desk for photography bought used at an attractive price.

 

[Bleib]

LCD from wiki

Screen burn-in - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gotta wonder what goes on the minds of the people running these major TV-channels. Do they not realize that they could move the logos after a certain amount of time?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

It was a random one I pulled form the net.

But it doesn't mater every screen type will burn in.

here is an old an old CRT.
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comments/vd7oxu

LCD from wiki

Screen burn-in - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Imagine if Pornhub logo burns into your screen! you are then screwed . . .

 

[Snarfie]

In have now for 1,5 years a Qled 50 inch tv quite happy with the quality.
From the beginning i put the brightness/contrast on 67% which for us is Bright enough. Doing so does that mean that my screen will last longer than using let say 95% of contrast.? If so how much longer. Using 95% or 63% contrast/brightness is regarding consumption kwh a big difference 105 watt versus 65 watt. Daily use around 5 hours.

 

[DLS79]

In have now for 1,5 years a Qled 50 inch tv quite happy with the quality.
From the beginning i put the brightness/contrast on 63% which for us is Bright enough. Doing so does that mean that my screen will last longer than using let say 95% of contrast.? If so how much longer. Using 95% or 63% contrast/brightness is regarding consumption kwh a big difference 105 watt versus 65 watt. Daily use around 5 hours.

Are you asking about burn in, or general panel life?

 

[Sal1950]

Imagine if Pornhub logo burns into your screen! you are then screwed . . .

Hey, I resemble that remark.

LCD from wiki

Screen burn-in - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If LCD I believe that's more a case of persistence than burn-in and might actually disappear after using a different
screen for a while ?
I had what was a very expensive rear projection set back in the day. It had a badly burned distortion in the bottom
right corner from all the stations putting their logos there. I'm so glad those projection days are far behind us.

The (anti reflection? wider viewing angle?) screen coating has been an issue on the TOTL Sony Mini LED TVs as well.

I don't know what they were thinking with that coating? With a light source to the far sides of the viewing angle,
the dang rainbow effect is VERY distracting. AFAIK Samsung learned their lesson with the 2022 models and discontinued
using it the next year. A year too late for me but the good news is there's never a time I can't turn off the offending
light source when watching the set, just sayin
As Roseanne Roseannadanna used to say, "...it just goes to show you, it's always something — if it ain't one thing, it's another."

 

[DLS79]

If LCD I believe that's more a case of persistence than burn-in and might actually disappear after using a different
screen for a while ?

in the short term, but over time you end up with basically the same problem.

Image persistence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Liquid crystals have a natural relaxed state. When a voltage is applied they rearrange themselves to block certain light waves. If left with the same voltage for an extended period of time (e.g. displaying a pointer or the Taskbar in one place, or showing a static picture for extended periods of time), the liquid crystals can develop a tendency to stay in one position. This ever-so-slight tendency to stay arranged in one position can throw the requested color off by a slight degree, which causes the image to look like the traditional "burn-in" on phosphor based displays. In fact, the root cause of LCD image retention is different from phosphor aging, but the phenomenon is the same, namely uneven use of display pixels. Slight LCD image retention can be recovered. When severe image retention occurs, the liquid crystal molecules have been polarized and cannot rotate in the electric field, so they cannot be recovered.

The cause of this tendency is unclear. It might be due to various factors, including accumulation of ionic impurities inside the LCD, impurities introduced during the fabrication of the LCD, imperfect driver settings, electric charge building up near the electrodes, parasitic capacitance, or a DC voltage component that occurs unavoidably in some display pixels owing to anisotropy in the dielectric constant of the liquid crystal.

 

[Timcognito]

Have an LG C9 for 5+ years, using it for 3-4 hours a day and zero signs of burn-in. It has pixel refresher that runs when not use every month or so. The burn-in thing is overblown unless you following your stocks on it for hours and days on end. Brand new TVs are probably even better than my 2019 C9.

 

[Oddball]

The case against the new oled panels with pixel shifting is definitely not burn in. Unless all you do is the fixed logo aka PornHub That might wear it out despite of the pixel shifting - it works on the premise that you watch diverse content.

 

[Sal1950]

Have an LG C9 for 5+ years, using it for 3-4 hours a day and zero signs of burn-in. It has pixel refresher that runs when not use every month or so. The burn-in thing is overblown unless you following your stocks on it for hours and days on end.

Tim, I respect you posting your experience but it is a single use case of yours.
The facts are that OLED's are susceptible to burn-in and potential buyers deserve to be aware.
Each and every buyers case is an individual decision. I for one use my 85" Samsung often to display
my music server computers screen, and often fall asleep doing so. Purchasing a OLED for my use would be
simply asking for trouble or not using the set in the manner I desire.
Except for very small differences, todays OLED and QLED are about on equal ground and offer a variety of
strengths and weaknesses. Ya buy your ticket and take your ride.

 

[Timcognito]

Tim, I respect you posting your experience but it is a single use case of yours.
The facts are that OLED's are susceptible to burn-in and potential buyers deserve to be aware.
Each and every buyers case is an individual decision. I for one use my 85" Samsung often to display
my music server computers screen, and often fall asleep doing so. Purchasing a OLED for my use would be
simply asking for trouble or not using the set in the manner I desire.
Except for very small differences, todays OLED and QLED are about on equal ground and offer a variety of
strengths and weaknesses. Ya buy your ticket and take your ride.

Agree tech marches on. The biggest issue with my generation OLED is its low brightness, but not for me because I have a dark room. In 2019 it was the hot setup with the Pioneer plasma looking and acting a bit dated