What does toe-in mean?

[fpitas]

This from the Absolute Sound... it must be correct:

4) Toe-in affects tonal balance, soundstage width, and image focus.
Toe-in is pointing a loudspeaker inward toward the listener rather than aiming it straight ahead. Toe-in is a powerful tool for dialing-in the soundstage and treble balance. There are no rules for toe-in; the optimal amount will vary greatly with the speaker and the room.

Honestly, that's one popular viewpoint.

 

[DonH56]

Toe out (per my picture) widens the listening area to provide greater (wider) sound field. Mostly used for parties or auditoriums (when speakers are on stage near'ish the center) to pick up people on the outer edges.

 

[voodooless]

Toe out (per my picture) widens the listening area to provide greater (wider) sound field. Mostly used for parties or auditoriums (when speakers are on stage near'ish the center) to pick up people on the outer edges.

Just buy a Beolab 90 and be done with that pedestrian shuffling of boxes

 

[Blumlein 88]

Omni's, just get omnis like MBL's. There is no toe.

 

[-Matt-]

I wonder if the preferred definition of toe in differs depending on whether you are mostly thinking about stereo or multichannel?

In Kef's R series manual they show this setup for 2 speakers (although it is primarily intended to show the minimum recommended distance from the walls).

And setups like this with the speaker axes pointing directly at the main listening position for multichannel.

For me (mostly multichannel) toe in/out relative to on axis seems a more useful concept. However, the idea does collapse in the case of a side speaker exactly at 90 degrees (see above, which way would be toe in and toe out)!

I can also accept the idea of absolute toe angle as a deviation from speaker axes being parallel (and the analogy to car wheels).


Thanks all for your input. If nothing else, hopefully this thread serves to underline that people can have different meanings for the term toe in. So in cases where it is important to the discussion, it is probably a good idea to specify what the toe in angle is relative to. Or better still, draw a picture!

 

[DonH56]

I wonder if the preferred definition of toe in differs depending on whether you are mostly thinking about stereo or multichannel?

In Kef's R series manual they show this setup for 2 speakers (although it is primarily intended to show the minimum recommended distance from the walls).

View attachment 339646

And setups like this with the speaker axes pointing directly at the main listening position for multichannel.

View attachment 339649


For me (mostly multichannel) toe in/out relative to on axis seems a more useful concept. However, the idea does collapse in the case of a side speaker exactly at 90 degrees (see above, which way would be toe in and toe out)!

I can also accept the idea of absolute toe angle as a deviation from speaker axes being parallel (and the analogy to car wheels).


Thanks all for your input. If nothing else, hopefully this thread serves to underline that people can have different meanings for the term toe in. So in cases where it is important to the discussion, it is probably a good idea to specify what the toe in angle is relative to. Or better still, draw a picture!

The lower diagram is essentially the Dolby recommended angles for the speakers. The Dolby site has a bunch of scenarios with suggested speaker angles. Note these all assume the speaker points directly at the main listening position (MLP).

 

[-Matt-]

Note these all assume the speaker points directly at the main listening position (MLP).

Yes exactly, that seems to be the default starting point for multichannel, but not necessarily for stereo.

Edit:
...having said that, I note that Toole's book makes a distinction between "academic" circular, and "real-world" rectangular schemes:

 

[SteveC]

In my opinion, toe-in refers to any position where the speakers are angled toward the seating position. Any position not pointed directly at the listening position is off-axis. There may be perfectly good reasons for the speakers to be aligned for off-axis listening (i.e. aimed to cross in front of or behind the listening position, or to not cross at all). It has nothing at all to do with the relationship of the speakers to the walls.

 

[DonH56]

Yes exactly, that seems to be the default starting point for multichannel, but not necessarily for stereo.

Edit:
...having said that, I note that Toole's book makes a distinction between "academic" circular, and "real-world" rectangular schemes:

View attachment 339705

I think Dolby has a diagram for basic two-channel but I am not sure. The default for stereo for many decades has been an equilateral triangle with the speakers aimed directly at the listener.