Which upgrade path to take?

[kolestonin]

Hello,

I have the following system:

Windows 10 pc>Topping E30 DAC>Topping Pre90 Preamp>boXem Arthur 3409/N2(nc252mp) Poweramp
2XKEF R3 Meta
2XSVS SB-1000pro

Usage scenario:

80% qobuz app in wasabi exclusive mode+20% web radio, usually around 65-70db at a 3m listening position.
I also pass a lot of time at my secondary 5,5m listening position.


This system is giving me the best sound I ever had in my life.
I would like to investigate my upgrade options though as the enemy of the good is the better, and as I enjoy this hobby and want to constantly enhance my experience.
If I would really need to name what I miss from my current setup, I would generically say: bass.
Deeper, cleaner bass with some tactile effect if possible.

My budget is maximum 2000euros(+the amount I will get from the sale of the equipment I will replace).
What would you upgrade if you were in my position?

I am adding a poll so even the ones who do not want to comment can cast their votes

(I need to say that I believe the 'weakest link' in my case is my 30-35m2 L shaped open living room with quite a lot of glass(covered by curtains) surfaces. I did not add room treatment among my choices though, as I will leave this apartment in approximately 2 years and I do not want to invest in this regard.

I also understand that eventually the most reasonable and value for money path to take would be to invest in some room correction/EQ/sub integration solution. But this is also not an option for me as each time I experimented with Dirac(trial period), REW, MSO, Minidsp Flex(bought and returned it) etc, the result was a lot of frustration by the doubt of not setting things correctly and worse sound at the end. I might do not know what I want/need, but I know what I do not. And I definitely do not want any of the current EQ and/or sub integration solutions no matter how simple or efficient they are. The only option I may consider in the future is paying a professional to do everything for me but I think I will always prefer upgrading my gear, even for diminishing returns, as this makes me enjoying my hobby and having fun)

 

[DMill]

By not allowing EQ or room improvements as an option you have truly presented an almost unsolvable question. There was a Star Trek problem like this. Kobeashi Maru (spelling wrong). Your DAC and power are transparent. Maybe there is another speaker you might prefer over the already great KEFs? Other than that I’d say enjoy the music and buy a new watch.

 

[DWPress]

I hate to say it but some DSP is likely to be the most effective for what you're after. Getting familiar with REW is important to identify what's wrong and verify any changes. There are people out there who will create the filters for you as you noted but then any major change would require new filters and you'll need some comfort with REW just to send them the measurement.

Floor standing speakers would maybe be an improvement but getting any speaker to XO nicely into subs requires a bit more than HP/LP filters and phase alignment. Once again DSP....

 

[kolestonin]

By not allowing EQ or room improvements as an option you have truly presented an almost unsolvable question. There was a Star Trek problem like this. Kobeashi Maru (spelling wrong). Your DAC and power are transparent. Maybe there is another speaker you might prefer over the already great KEFs? Other than that I’d say enjoy the music and buy a new watch.

So let's make an hypothesis based on your fully understandable statement.
I buy a full dirac(+bass control) license and I hire a professional to set up everything up for me.
Then I will have an end game system? With two entry level subs and two bookshelf speakers?

I hate to say it but some DSP is likely to be the most effective for what you're after. Getting familiar with REW is important to identify what's wrong and verify any changes. There are people out there who will create the filters for you as you noted but then any major change would require new filters and you'll need some comfort with REW just to send them the measurement.

Floor standing speakers would maybe be an improvement but getting any speaker to XO nicely into subs requires a bit more than HP/LP filters and phase alignment. Once again DSP....

Forgive my ignorance, but a pair of active speakers(which I don't prefer given that on my mind are more adequate for nearfield) of this price range cannot be considered a no need for external DSP solution?

 

[pablolie]

Hello,

I have the following system:

Windows 10 pc>Topping E30 DAC>Topping Pre90 Preamp>boXem Arthur 3409/N2(nc252mp) Poweramp
2XKEF R3 Meta
2XSVS SB-1000pro

Usage scenario:

80% qobuz app in wasabi exclusive mode+20% web radio, usually around 65-70db at a 3m listening position.
I also pass a lot of time at my secondary 5,5m listening position.


This system is giving me the best sound I ever had in my life.
I would like to investigate my upgrade options though as the enemy of the good is the better, and as I enjoy this hobby and want to constantly enhance my experience.
If I would really need to name what I miss from my current setup, I would generically say: bass.
Deeper, cleaner bass with some tactile effect if possible.

My budget is maximum 2000euros(+the amount I will get from the sale of the equipment I will replace).
What would you upgrade if you were in my position?

I am adding a poll so even the ones who do not want to comment can cast their votes

(I need to say that I believe the 'weakest link' in my case is my 30-35m2 L shaped open living room with quite a lot of glass(covered by curtains) surfaces. I did not add room treatment among my choices though, as I will leave this apartment in approximately 2 years and I do not want to invest in this regard.

I also understand that eventually the most reasonable and value for money path to take would be to invest in some room correction/EQ/sub integration solution. But this is also not an option for me as each time I experimented with Dirac(trial period), REW, MSO, Minidsp Flex(bought and returned it) etc, the result was a lot of frustration by the doubt of not setting things correctly and worse sound at the end. I might do not know what I want/need, but I know what I do not. And I definitely do not want any of the current EQ and/or sub integration solutions no matter how simple or efficient they are. The only option I may consider in the future is paying a professional to do everything for me but I think I will always prefer upgrading my gear, even for diminishing returns, as this makes me enjoying my hobby and having fun)

I'd say all the gear you have is pretty recent and actually quite stellar. Why would you want to "upgrade"? What is the flaw you are addressing? I most absolutely think the best thing you can invest into is room correction. Other than that I'd leave things alone and wait a few years for anything truly better, just in case it comes around in an audible way.

 

[DWPress]

of this price range cannot be considered a no need for external DSP solution?

The most perfectly measured speaker will not be perfect once it is placed in your room. DSP can help.

 

[pseudoid]

My budget is maximum 2000euros (+the amount I will get from the sale of the equipment I will replace).

Keep them all, be proud, and send me the remaining savings!

 

[DWPress]

If you are only listening at 60-70dB then your subs and bookshelf speakers should be more than adequate. At those listening levels bass will rarely be present the way you'd want it to be.

 

[pablolie]

If you are only listening at 60-70dB then your subs and bookshelf speakers should be more than adequate. At those listening levels bass will rarely be present the way you'd want it to be.

That's why old school amps had a "loudness" button...

PS: I never used it.

 

[pseudoid]

PS: I never used it.

I used to feel the same way about the tone-controls, that were right next to that "Loudness" button.
I would ONLY use the "Defeat/Bypass" button (for the tone-controls) ONCE: Then, keep it disabled thereupon!

 

[kemmler3D]

I definitely do not want any of the current EQ and/or sub integration solutions no matter how simple or efficient they are.

I know you said this is the only thing you don't want to do, but it's the main thing you really SHOULD do at this point. Since you are using a Windows PC as as source, just use EQAPO for your EQ. It's free and if you do it right you are very likely to get better bass out of it.

Install EQAPO and re-install REW, get a UMIK, and follow a tutorial.

There are many tutorials on how to do it here on ASR.

If you really don't want to do it yourself, pay someone a few bucks to do it. If you are in the bay area I'll swing by and do it just for the experience, lol.

How to tell if it has been done right:

The measurements look better (smoother curve in the <300hz region)

And if you sweep the frequencies using something like this: https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/ the volume will be subjectively about the same as you sweep up and down.

Your system is already good. The improvement you're looking for is hidden behind EQ. More subs would potentially help but not without good integration.

I just set up a 12" mystery sub (supposedly an M&K clone) in my office. I bought it without fear or needing to look up the specs, because I knew it had an OK amount of power and good low extension, and using REW I was able to make it sound really nice. Without REW / EQAPO it sounded actually shockingly bad. I cannot emphasize enough how much a proper room EQ setting can benefit the sound. Subjectively, it seems like the mids also improve, not just the bass. I really encourage you to give EQ another try. Dumber people than you, with worse systems have gotten improvements from it.

If you are simply allergic to EQ then I say sell everything and get some cardioid speakers like the D&D 8C.

I buy a full dirac(+bass control) license and I hire a professional to set up everything up for me.
Then I will have an end game system? With two entry level subs and two bookshelf speakers?

No, but maybe surprisingly close. Going up in terms of quality from here means higher SPL, lower distortion, better directivity, or just switching tracks entirely to OB, Omni, dipole, horn, etc. At a low listening level, your system can get close to $XX,XXX speakers with properly executed DSP and perhaps acoustic treatments. If you want to go loud in a big room then maybe you can spend 5x and get a commensurate benefit. At a low level in a small room, there is only so much speaker you can buy without wasting money.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

It's been posted here: DSP/EQ are quasi-necessary in most any room. EQ/DSP are not the evil the subjectivist press managed to make them appear. It is a misconception. This is provable.

I would suggest to start by acquiring a miniDSP UMik-1, about $100. Download REW (free) and learn to measure. You would quickly understand what happens to the signal on its way to your ears. In the bass, it is almost laughable: You could see swing of a peak of 20 db (no typo: Twenty) at 40 Hz followed by a null of -50 dB at 60 Hz , and this at the listening position... Do not think about EQ, just yet

When you have a good handle of measuring your system, you move to the next step. Your PC could provide the necessary software.. Roon, PEACE/APO (free), or even Dirac (not free) if you feel adventurous.. or you may acquire a dedicated DSP/EQ box or ...

Getting the best sound from your gear is , frankly and this needs to be stressed, arduous. difficult even . It will take time, but once properly achieved ... I don't know if that would be endgame but you may find yourself wondering if you should bother ....

Peace.

 

[SKBubba]

This system is giving me the best sound I ever had in my life.

I think you answered your own question.

 

[DMill]

PS: I never used it

Not even once.

 

[Chrispy]

Just constantly buying different gear is not something that appeals to me. Your gear sounds quite good and as you say it sounds good. Collect more content sounds like a better use of the money. In an apartment living situation two subs isn't bad....but if you want bigger/better subs there are plenty to spend money on....do they not extend low enough or just don't play loud enough? As to measurement/setup, preference isn't the same as reference.

 

[pseudoid]

I don't aim to deflect away from your original questions but...
You did your homework and you did achieve your goals from the "objecitivity-side" of the equation most of us value here.
You also admit your system is "giving the best sound" ever, which is the "subjectivity-side" of the that equation for music nirvana.
You have also stated that room-correction and/or EQ is inconsequential for certain reasons.
Besides all of the worthy recommendations from members, I recommend just putting a Maraschino cherry on top of your system and enjoying the music.

An observation: An older PC running Win10 may not be the best hardware to route audio (analog/digital) through.

 

[JiiPee]

Since DSP and accoustics improvements are out, I suggest the following:

1. Turn up the volume to get more impactful bass. If this does not help, or if You do not want to increase listening volume, then:
2. Try different positioning of the speakers / subs. If this does not help, then:
3. Try different listening positions. If this does not help, then:
4. Learn to live with the situation until You move to the next location.

 

[ScofieldKid]

I voted "Other". That room is going to be a challenge. I wouldn't could see doing 15" subs, maybe like the HSU VTF-3 MK5. I always thought the Velodyne 15" servo stuff was good. I currently run a single 12", so that has always been more than enough for me. So the problem may be that you feel you can't get your SPL level high enough for those particular speakers, or that you really want more mid-bass. You might consider going to a 4-driver tower speaker, and driving at a higher wattage.

If it were me, I would just try a different arrangement for where the listening area sits in the room.

 

[JiiPee]

It just occurred to me that besides the advise I gave previously, Your 2000€ budget combined with the planned move in 2 years time, gives also another alternative. An alternative that may actually give more satisfactory results.

2 years means 104 weeks and 2000€ divided by 104 weeks gives 19.23€ per week. 19€ buys You a nice bottle of red wine. In my experience 1/2 bottle is enough to give a much improved listening experience, so for Your investment, You get 2 improved listening sessions per week for the remainder of Your stay in the current location.

 

[Chrispy]

It just occurred to me that besides the advise I gave previously, Your 2000€ budget combined with the planned move in 2 years time, gives also another alternative. An alternative that may actually give more satisfactory results.

2 years means 104 weeks and 2000€ divided by 104 weeks gives 19.23€ per week. 19€ buys You a nice bottle of red wine. In my experience 1/2 bottle is enough to give a much improved listening experience, so for Your investment, You get 2 improved listening sessions per week for the remainder of Your stay in the current location.

So you use that wine allowance daily?