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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

rdenney

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Kal does offer subjective reviews, but his reviews are informed by principles rooted in measurements. I trust his reviews as long as measurements back them up.

But Kal is exceptional among his colleagues, many of whom claim to hear the effects of an assortment of snake-oil products.

So how is that beginner supposed to know that Kal’s reviews are sensitive to measured performance and controlled preference models, while that of some of his colleagues are subject to the audio equivalent of occult beliefs? Data!

@steve59, I think you need to read more of Amir’s reviews if you don’t think he validates his measurements with listening.

As I said before, it’s about instincts. What’s the instinctive response when the subjective impression differs from the measured performance? Is it to happily declare that measurements are inadequate and therefore those ASR loonies must have tin ears? Or is it to understand the cause (biases, mistakes of measurement or testing, improper measurement interpretation, a preference corrupted by years of experience with distortion and coloration—whatever) well enough to figure out why? The latter response builds trust, the former builds mistrust, at least with me.

I think any manufacture will validate with listening. But they’ll put that effort into unsolved problems. Nobody needs a listening test of a DAC with vanishingly low distortion—data has shown over and over that whatever differences people claim don’t survive blind testing—except to confirm it is not defective.

I find it odd that those who insist (as I do) that it’s all about hearing are too often the least willing to subject their impressions to hearing-only rigor. In fact, by eschewing and disparaging controlled (blind) testing, they are insisting that they can hear accurately with their eyes rather than their ears. If their experience with what they hear is so good, why the reluctance to validate it with testing that only uses hearing?

Rick “trust but verify” Denney
 
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pkane

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Don't know your age.....
But if you had years of experience in (something/anything), do you not think that would be valuable information to someone just starting out in the same (something/anything).
Say what you want, but experience has its merits!
Validate your experience with some controlled testing, then we'll have something to talk about. Without it, we have no way to judge whether your opinion is based in reality or in pure imagination.
 

pma

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Validate your experience with some controlled testing, then we'll have something to talk about. Without it, we have no way to judge whether your opinion is based in reality or in pure imagination.
I think the problem is that the vast majority of posters is unable to interpret measured plots and parameters properly. It is not that simple. And, I do not believe in a meaningful communication between a layman and an experienced professional. It just does not work, and is a waste of time too often. And an oversimplification in attempts of explanation may make more troubles than anything good.
 

pkane

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I think the problem is that the vast majority of posters is unable to interpret measured plots and parameters properly. It is not that simple. And, I do not believe in a meaningful communication between a layman and an experienced professional. It just does not work, and is a waste of time too often.
Sure, but I'm not even talking about measurements. Simple level-matched blind testing is sufficient to show anyone how their brain manufactures differences where there aren't any. Even those with lots and lots of 'experience'.
 

billyjoebob

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I don't have golden ears, I have a fair amount of experience. Let's share it since you ask

dacs - don't give a damn, as long as accurate, essentially SINAD > 100
amps - don't give a dam as long as they are able to drive the load and no house curve.
cables/interconnect - lol!
speakers+room - care a lot! treat as one single component, as long as you aren't near field. Measure, move around, correct to taste.

Done.
You pretty much described myself!
Amps yea.
DACS ehh, I did not care for the topping D50s tho.
60% of my budget went to speakers.
I needed (almost a years worth) of research and customers input to finally make my choice.
 

billyjoebob

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Validate your experience with some controlled testing, then we'll have something to talk about. Without it, we have no way to judge whether your opinion is based in reality or in pure imagination.
I need not validate anything!
If you don't care what I say,
Keep scrolling!
 

billyjoebob

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Sure, but I'm not even talking about measurements. Simple level-matched blind testing is sufficient to show anyone how their brain manufactures differences where there aren't any. Even those with lots and lots of 'experience'.
I am not a scientist.
I am a lover of music!
As such I will not waste my time by making my listening pleasure one of a chore to make others happy.
I reasearch my equipment well!
I start with measurements to narrow down my choices, then use ACTUAL customers advice and reviews, followed by my own listening experience to choose a component.
 

pkane

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I am not a scientist.
I am a lover of music!
As such I will not waste my time by making my listening pleasure one of a chore to make others happy.
I reasearch my equipment well!
I start with measurements to narrow down my choices, then use ACTUAL customers advice and reviews, followed by my own listening experience to choose a component.

What a non-sequitur! Did I say anything about being a scientist or did I simply suggest that there’s a better way to figure out what equipment is really better? No measurements, no white coats, no EE degrees required. Why are you so opposed?
 

billyjoebob

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What a non-sequitur! Did I say anything about being a scientist or did I simply suggest that there’s a better way to figure out what equipment is really better? No measurements, no white coats, no EE degrees required. Why are you so opposed?
No.no.no
I dont mean it like that!
I'm just saying that I don't have the energy or really the care to do that!
That is why I'm here. I research and study, learn from others with more knowledge and then I just get lost in the music. Happy with whatever I am listening to it on.
Music makes me happy.
Not the equipment.
 

pkane

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No.no.no
I dont mean it like that!
I'm just saying that I don't have the energy or really the care to do that!
That is why I'm here. I research and study, learn from others with more knowledge and then I just get lost in the music. Happy with whatever I am listening to it on.
Music makes me happy.
Not the equipment.

Nothing wrong with that!
 
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I honestly don't think there are many musicians on this site. I say this because a lot of musicians like things that color the sound. Like there are a ton of plugins and hardware that is made just for this very reason. Like you would run a clean signal through it to color the sound. A lot of people also like something like this in their hifi setup. People here seem to think it is wrong to like such things. I think that is very narrow minded myself.

A good chunk of pop music has been done with intentional colouring of the "natural" sound of the instruments played by the musicians. But that is done by the artist(s) as part of their creative process, right? If one, on the listening side, were to try to intentionally colour the reproduction of that creation, do we really care for what that particular artist creates?

Perhaps a parallel would be watching Matrix and thinking "I don't like how that movie looks green", and then trying to tone that tint down by adjusting your TV set's picture settings. Well, yeah, you absolutely can do that and you are entitled to, but... that's really intentionally deviating from the experience the creators of that work intended / had in mind / wanted you to experience it.
 

Spkrdctr

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#1 i wanna understand myself because for me the only real reason for faction 1 users being faction 1 is just having a setup which masks all the little issue me and others obviously hear, different capacitors sounding different, same goes for opamps, even cables and connectors, EVEN power cables and audiophile fuses and the only answer to this i can see is that those things, those changes which dont need to be FR changes but something "deeper" need to be measured in other ways which we obviously dont know how to do and this gives great opportunity for all "measurement is all" users to just deny and keep listening to the obviously limiting (sorry, shit) setup you have, i just cant explain it in any other way

#2 i just wish there would be "audiophile" setups that can be listened to for free to open some eyes here for you "cant be measured, its bs" guys ( tho i really believe that some will still have wood-ears..... )

#3 also the REAL question i ask myself each time is, WHO is really fooling yourself
1. the guys just listening and trusting their brains with CRITICAL listening
2. the guys just DENYING everything because of some graphs and who are biased af ("iTs ScIeNcE", yea ITS and a sound profile cant be shown in 3 graphs!!!!!!)

OK, you made me wake up and start typing. Many here know I'm going to repeat myself from prior posts. I will answer by the numbers.

#1. The reason you hear different op amps, resistors, speaker wire, interconnects, fuses and cable risers, green CD markers, cryogenically frozen gear and on and on, is because your brain is playing a trick on you. You have a supercomputer of a brain but the control of that awesome brain is uncontrolled! Your brain tells you all kinds of things regarding sound that is untrue. How do I know? There have been thousands of blind tests done over the last 40 years on all of what you mention and NO ONE, NOT ONE has ever been able to tell a difference between any of those components in a blind test. These are tests done with two speakers (stereo) and real music and there is a 100% failure rate. The problem is that the marketing of snake oil is rampant in the audio community. All of the manufacturers do it. If you do not, you will not sell a product. All, yes that is correct 100% of the differences you think you hear are your brain playing tricks on you. If it wasn't, you could pick out a difference in a blind test.

#2 There used to be years ago when there were real audio shops all across the country. For a quick example, all you had to do was have someone listen and then you pretend to switch out a component (anything except speakers) and have them listen to lets say a $1000 dollar per foot speaker wire. They then were AMAZED at how good the wire sounded. They were totally sold on the high end wire. Then you showed them you did not switch out the wire and it was still Radio Shack 14ga wire and they were stunned. Their brain took over and made them think it was amazing. This applies to ALL of the items listed and more!

#3 Humans DO NOT have the ability to overcome this interference by the brain in what they perceive they hear. Critical listening may get you to hear your speakers a little better, but in no way can you hear any of the other stuff. You are at the complete mercy of your brain. So really in the end, critical listening can determine gross differences in the sound but nothing else. The differences have to be measured as the human ear/brain system is terrible at helping design good equipment.

One disclaimer. I must mention it as Amir has experience with it as a "trained listener" engineer to determine manufacturing decisions. This is done after the design work is done and then it is checked by ear just to make sure nothing has gone horribly wrong. It is done with one speaker or headphones and special music/tone clips of short duration. Listening in stereo at home or in an audio store it is impossible to hear components as listed in #1.

For those with extensive experience, it is just going over the same things as each new member comes on board. So all this to say, welcome aboard and learn from the experienced people here. :)
 
D

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well thanks for the effort but this is just untrue

1. how is it that things sound worse sometimes, even with high hopes?
2. how is it i can reproducable hear the same changes over and over again, on different days etc with the same opamp`s for example? for the worse or the better beside having high hopes, which should trick the mind, right?

im not saying the mind cant never be fooled, sure you can hear things if you "expect" them but this is not the case in "100% of the times" .... specially if you are just objective without any expectations, just listen....

sorry, you cant change my mind

If it wasn't, you could pick out a difference in a blind test.
i never did extensive blind testing on "all the things" (because i think its flawed) but i certainly did some, flac vs mp3 for example and there was still a error (tho high percentage right) this just tells me blind testing doesnt work like you guys think/expect it to be.... it just really works on very obvious things and at that point you dont need a blindtest to begin with...
switching back and forth confuses the auditory system and you "forget" what is actually right which introduces errors, maybe thats just me but this would also explain a lot

and one other thing, if all the "audiphiles" make things up, we apparently have a lot of psychotic people running around :D

i actually think, if blind test would be done like that -> listen multiple times to the same A song and put at random a single B song in (like 5x A 1x B 4x A 1x B and so on) it would actually work alot better then switching back and forth with a 50/50 chance because the brain has time to accoustem to the A sound and it feels way easier to hear the changes of the sudden B then, someone should try that
 
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NTK

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well thanks for the effort but this is just untrue
You may want to watch this video on the McGurk effect. Even when you are fully aware, you will "hear" something different when our vision contradicts the sound waves hitting our ear drums. This is how strongly our different sensory perceptions can influence/override each other.

 

dshreter

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I believe everything in audio is measurable. But I think it’s at least possible that ears are better at interpretation of some differences than the way we analyze measurements.

For example, it is very easy to look at a dog and recognize it is a dog. You can take a photograph of that same dog, but identifying it as a dog is a quite complex problem to solve for a computer.

I expect one day you’ll be able to fire up an app like REW and it will be able to go much further in interpreting the performance of a system. For now, there’s a lot that is difficult to extract from the measurements even if they contain all the data one would need.
 
D

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You may want to watch this video on the McGurk effect. Even when you are fully aware, you will "hear" something different when our vision contradicts the sound waves hitting our ear drums. This is how strongly our different sensory perceptions can influence/override each other.
oh i didnt know that effect yet :D kinda remarkable how it transforms from "ba" to "fa" just because our brain "expects" it to be because of the lip-movement (tho i could concentrate on the sound and hear "ba" again after a few "fa`s")
but i have also noticed something similar, i thought first it would be interference of some kind from my lamps (because it sounded "different" with lamps on or off) but sound actually just "sounds" a little cleaner/louder if you turn off the lights because the brain can "concentrate" better on audio then...

beside those effect i still have no doubt i hear (the same) differences with different things even it was a good demonstration of how our visual/auditory systems get connected in the brain

this also reminds me of a rock song i have where the lyrics go along and he says " serious (ness)" while he doesnt say the "ness" you have to think about it because of the lyrics before and actually just hear him say "seriousness" in your mind even he just says "serious" in the song :)
(the "added" "ness" by the mind sounds just like he would have said it by himself because the mind can apparently reconstruct voices just by the way we heared other words before by the same person)
this principle gets also used by alot of artists to say "funny things" even we just think those by ourself because of rimes or expectations because of lyrics before
 
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DanielT

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well thanks for the effort but this is just untrue

1. how is it that things sound worse sometimes, even with high hopes?
2. how is it i can reproducable hear the same changes over and over again, on different days etc with the same opamp`s for example? for the worse or the better beside having high hopes, which should trick the mind, right?

im not saying the mind cant never be fooled, sure you can hear things if you "expect" them but this is not the case in "100% of the times" .... specially if you are just objective without any expectations, just listen....

sorry, you cant change my mind


i never did extensive blind testing on "all the things" (because i think its flawed) but i certainly did some, flac vs mp3 for example and there was still a error (tho high percentage right) this just tells me blind testing doesnt work like you guys think/expect it to be.... it just really works on very obvious things and at that point you dont need a blindtest to begin with...
switching back and forth confuses the auditory system and you "forget" what is actually right which introduces errors, maybe thats just me but this would also explain a lot

and one other thing, if all the "audiphiles" make things up, we apparently have a lot of psychotic people running around :D

i actually think, if blind test would be done like that -> listen multiple times to the same A song and put at random a single B song in (like 5x A 1x B 4x A 1x B and so on) it would actually work alot better then switching back and forth with a 50/50 chance because the brain has time to accoustem to the A sound and it feels way easier to hear the changes of the sudden B then, someone should try that
Test this, same volume (important), same recording (important),switch between two players, blind test (important).

Good luck :


Even if you are normally a cool cat, I dare to promise that you will be:
 

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solderdude

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I believe everything in audio is measurable. But I think it’s at least possible that ears are better at interpretation of some differences than the way we analyze measurements.

In the electrical plane everything is measurable and interpret-able.
In the acoustical plane we can capture almost everything in and just outside of the audible band with great accuracy but the full analysis of dynamic complex signals is a challenge. At least it is repeatable and not mood and individual dependent which the hearing/brain is.
You can get reasonable close in some aspects though.
 

Spkrdctr

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well thanks for the effort but this is just untrue

1. how is it that things sound worse sometimes, even with high hopes?
2. how is it i can reproducable hear the same changes over and over again, on different days etc with the same opamp`s for example? for the worse or the better beside having high hopes, which should trick the mind, right?

im not saying the mind cant never be fooled, sure you can hear things if you "expect" them but this is not the case in "100% of the times" .... specially if you are just objective without any expectations, just listen....

sorry, you cant change my mind


i never did extensive blind testing on "all the things" (because i think its flawed) but i certainly did some, flac vs mp3 for example and there was still a error (tho high percentage right) this just tells me blind testing doesnt work like you guys think/expect it to be.... it just really works on very obvious things and at that point you dont need a blindtest to begin with...
switching back and forth confuses the auditory system and you "forget" what is actually right which introduces errors, maybe thats just me but this would also explain a lot

and one other thing, if all the "audiphiles" make things up, we apparently have a lot of psychotic people running around :D

i actually think, if blind test would be done like that -> listen multiple times to the same A song and put at random a single B song in (like 5x A 1x B 4x A 1x B and so on) it would actually work alot better then switching back and forth with a 50/50 chance because the brain has time to accoustem to the A sound and it feels way easier to hear the changes of the sudden B then, someone should try that
I realize that there is so much additional information that you need to know to come to an adequate conclusion, that it is too much to teach in a thread. I am saying all this with nothing but kindness in my heart. It happens all the time on ASR. We have people come in and they legitimately want to talk about ideas, concepts and facts that they do not realize are at a very high level. These are not easy to grasp concepts. To get you to understand in more depth it will take multiple posts. If you really want to learn, I would be glad to help you but it can't be done in a few posts here. I will gladly talk to you in a private conversation that I can initiate here on ASR through the conversation tab associated with our names.

I appreciate your willingness to ask questions, but you will need an open mind to the decades of rigorous research performed by many scientists and engineers over the years. This represents millions and millions of dollars of research. Let me know and I will put in the time, but it shouldn't take more than a few weeks to get you some decent answers and your understanding will be much greater of the difficulty of audio and the human brain and the millions of dollars that have been spent figuring it out. Also, after 50 years and a boat load of money, audio research is still going on. It is by no means over.

I really mean it when I say welcome aboard! :)
 
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