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Help! problems with my dac Topping

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shot4d

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Hello
I recently published a post saying what dac to buy for 100 dollars and among the dacs was the Topping D10s and they recommended me to buy it to combine it with my smsl sp200 amplifier. Now the Topping D10s dac from Amazon finally arrived in my country and I used it and it worked but I didn’t like the sound quality, a very large and annoying floor sound is heard, when I put a song in .flac at first you hear that the floor sounds very bad and then the song covers the sound of the floor but there is also a little minimal interference in the songs and it only happens when I put the music on my pc, because when I don’t put music on I don’t hear any transfer or floor noise.
my headphones are the SENNHEISER hd 560S

So I don’t know if the problem is the combination of the Topping d10s dac with the smsl sp200 amplifier. or it can also be my rca to rca cables, since they are the typical cheap rca cables. So what do you think is the problem? my Topping d10s dac or my smsl sp200 amp? or the rca cables? And if by chance the problem is due to the Topping dac, then what dac do you recommend that makes a good team with my smsl sp200? with a budget of 150 dollars
 
OK - it sounds like you have a ground loop from your PC, through the dac and to the amp via the earthed power supply in the amp and PC.

This is a common problem with PC audio when connecting with unbalanced analogue connections. Do you have a laptop you can use to try connecting to the DAC while the laptop is running on battery. If the noise stops in that case, you can be pretty certain the problem is a ground loop.

The best way to solve this will be to connect with an optical connection from the PC to the DAC. This will break the ground loop and completely eliminate the noise. Do you have an optical TOSLINK out of your PC you can use? Alternatively you can get a USB to Toslink device and put that between the PC and DAC. If you can't connect with Toslink then you are going to have to try to reduce the problem with device and cable positioning, but it's likely you'll not be able to eliminate the issue completely that way.

Another option if the DAC is still in the return window is to return it and get one of the topping DACs with balanced outputs. You'll need to spend a little more, but the balanced connection should also eliminate the noise.


EDIT - just noticed the D10 only has an optical ouput - so toslink is not an option. I think you need to change your DAC

The D10 balanced would be a good choice and then go with balanced connections to the amp.
Or if you have TOSLINK out from your PC then a DAC with toslink input will also work - eg Topping E30
 
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Try with normal RCA cable before anything else.
 
tonycollinet said:
OK - it sounds like you have a ground loop from your PC, through the dac and to the amp via the earthed power supply in the amp and PC.

This is a common problem with PC audio when connecting with unbalanced analogue connections. Do you have a laptop you can use to try connecting to the DAC while the laptop is running on battery. If the noise stops in that case, you can be pretty certain the problem is a ground loop.

The best way to solve this will be to connect with an optical connection from the PC to the DAC. This will break the ground loop and completely eliminate the noise. Do you have an optical TOSLINK out of your PC you can use? Alternatively you can get a USB to Toslink device and put that between the PC and DAC. If you can't connect with Toslink then you are going to have to try to reduce the problem with device and cable positioning, but it's likely you'll not be able to eliminate the issue completely that way.

Another option if the DAC is still in the return window is to return it and get one of the topping DACs with balanced outputs. You'll need to spend a little more, but the balanced connection should also eliminate the noise.


EDIT - just noticed the D10 only has an optical ouput - so toslink is not an option. I think you need to change your DAC

The D10 balanced would be a good choice and then go with balanced connections to the amp.
Or if you have TOSLINK out from your PC then a DAC with toslink input will also work - eg Topping E30
Click to expand...
I already tried with an optical cable and I connected it to the dac and to my pc but it does not give an audio signal and my pc does not detect it as a dac, it only detects it with the usb port. I had an idea and that is that my amp has balanced xlr and amazon sells a male xlr to male rca cable, and my idea is to remove the rca to rca cable and use the xlr to rca to connect my smsl amp to the topping.... do you think it could work that way and solve my problem?
 
Just use normal RCA cable (one which won't make problems). You can try to find a USB cable with separate power - data lines so that you can feed it from other power source which will help regarding EMI from switching power supply from the PC. It's a ground loop and 90% chance it's from bad RCA cable.
You need to do debugging your self, it's not a big deal.
Both optical lines from D10S are output one's.
 
ZolaIII said:
Just use normal RCA cable (one which won't make problems). You can try to find a USB cable with separate power - data lines so that you can feed it from other power source which will help regarding EMI from switching power supply from the PC. It's a ground loop and 90% chance it's from bad RCA cable.
You need to do debugging your self, it's not a big deal.
Both optical lines from D10S are output one's.
Click to expand...
I don't understand what you're saying about a USB cable with separate power supply, I don't know that cable, could you send me a photo or a link to Amazon. because the d10s is usb a 2.0 to usb b cable. I also don't understand debugging with optical output line, I don't know how to do it. I tried to connect the dac to my pc with an optical cable but the pc doesn't tell me, it only detects it with the usb cable.
 
Forget about optical lines from D10S, they are only output lines (to send it to another DAC for conversion). By debugging by your self I ment determine the cause of ground loop which probably is RCA cable so start from there (try another one for which you know it's OK).
This is just for illustration purposes as its A to A.
You need one with output connector that DAC has as input and don't use patch - extensions one. That may help regarding it's performance but I am sure groundlop isn't there (EMI certainly is).
 
Before buying stuff, it might make sense to learn more about the problem.

There are two major kinds of noise, one is buzzing (basically the wave of the power distribution network somehow creeps into your amps input), the other is hiss, a noise more like the one you hear when you tune a radio to a dead channel.

Which one is it?

To test if the DAC is ok, which is likely, take it to a friend and test it there, with a different amp and using a mobile phone as a source.

To test the RCA cable you can use a multimeter, maybe one of the wires is broken? It happens. If it's not broken, it's likely not the problem, cheap ones are ok, as long as the wires are ok.
 
shot4d said:
I don't understand what you're saying about a USB cable with separate power supply, I don't know that cable, could you send me a photo or a link to Amazon. because the d10s is usb a 2.0 to usb b cable. I also don't understand debugging with optical output line, I don't know how to do it. I tried to connect the dac to my pc with an optical cable but the pc doesn't tell me, it only detects it with the usb cable.
Click to expand...
I don't believe a separate power supply helps here. It doesn't change the fact that the PC Earth is referenced to the DAC earth, and on to the amplifier earth. The earth loop still exists. You can use a USB isolator device - but this will be as expensive as a new DAC if it does the job properly.

Good RCA Cables with VERY low impedance screen might help since the voltage difference along the cable will be reduced. But it is still an unbalanced connection, and will only reduce the noise level, not eliminate it. It might reduce it to tolerable levels though.

Similarly putting the Dac and Amp close together, and using the shortest possible cable will help - in fact that will give a better result than improving the cable as the same length. If your RCA is long it may also improve the situation by bundling it up (folding back and forth and tie together - DON'T COIL IT).

Note - don't fall for the "very expensive RCA cables will be better". They wont.

It might also be worth making sure you have the PC and Amp connected to the same electrical socket if they are not already. Separate all PC stuff (especially monitor/graphics cables) from all audio cables, and keep mains connections away from PC cables also.

All these things are sticking plasters though. They may stop the bleeding, but to heal the wound get an optical connection going, or balanced audio connections.
 
@tonycollinet in my experience it does help (separate power source from less problematic AC/DC convertor like old mobile charger can improve SINAD couple of dB, battery couple more in some cases). Still use of short one is advised. As long as its good working normal quality RCA cable (acording to AWG with normal shielding) you are good up to 5~10 m length. Of course buy the length you really need. I won't tell anyone which one to buy. Buy a deacent known brand one with proper specs which ever is better available and cheaper where you live, don't buy fancy expensive one's (if it's not about some bizarre self propelled Estetic - Art driven desire to own "designer cables"). Buy a stage TPE coated one's if you wish.
Start diagnostic from RCA to USB cable and battery (mobile phone) to PC USB, let's pin the problem down. Maybe unit isn't in a good working condition.
@shot4d you need to do this yourself, no one of us can't do it for you, at best you can get guidance.
 
ZolaIII said:
@tonycollinet in my experience it does help (separate power source from less problematic AC/DC convertor like old mobile charger can improve SINAD couple of dB, battery couple more in some cases). Still use of short one is advised. As long as its good working normal quality RCA cable (acording to AWG with normal shielding) you are good up to 5~10 m length. Of course buy the length you really need. I won't tell anyone which one to buy. Buy a deacent known brand one with proper specs which ever is better available and cheaper where you live, don't buy fancy expensive one's (if it's not about some bizarre self propelled Estetic - Art driven desire to own "designer cables"). Buy a stage TPE coated one's if you wish.
Start diagnostic from RCA to USB cable and battery (mobile phone) to PC USB, let's pin the problem down. Maybe unit isn't in a good working condition.
@shot4d you need to do this yourself, no one of us can't do it for you, at best you can get guidance.
Click to expand...
Ground loops are not power supply noise. It is not PSU noise getting into the DAC, and disturbing the analogue part of the electronics. It is magnetic coupling of currents into the ground loop (acting like a loop antenna) which cause a voltage difference between the DAC and Amp (in this case) by the voltage difference across the ground conductor of the analogue interconnect. That magnetic coupling can come from many sources - mains wiring, PSU transformers, in PC applications, especially stray fields from graphics cards and monitor cables etc.

Your "good for 10m" audio cable won't apply if there is ground loop noise. The noise will increase proportionately to cable length - as the impedence of the ground conductor (shield) increases the voltage drop.

If it is as audible as stated, it needs much more than a couple of dB Sinad improvement.

Sorry if you know all this, but your reply suggests you are looking in the wrong direction.


@shot4d - as suggested above, do you have - or can you borrow - a laptop you can try on battery to drive the DAC. This is the best way of confirming easily that the noise is related to a ground loop. We should confirm this before trying next steps so we con't lead you down the wrong path.
 
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xaviescacs said:
I would sell both the DAC and the amp, and get a combo unit to save a lot of time and headache.
Click to expand...

That would work also. If OP does this he should get one with balanced outputs in case in the future he wants to drive a speaker amp.
 
tonycollinet said:
That would work also. If OP does this he should get one with balanced outputs in case in the future he wants to drive a speaker amp.
Click to expand...
I've tried in the past USB cables with separate power with mixed results. I wouldn't go there unless the OP wants to learn something or gain experience on the process. Otherwise, clean slate is the best IMHO, and balanced the better for the future. I have a unbalanced DAC + amp combo in my living room with no problems so far, but If I had encountered such problems with ground loops, I would have sold both and started from scratch with balanced and a single unit.
 
You can use a cheap Behringer dongle, like a U-Control 202/222, to convert USB from the computer to optical to feed the DAC and achieve isolation.
 
raindance said:
You can use a cheap Behringer dongle, like a UMC204HD, to convert USB from the computer to optical to feed the DAC and achieve isolation.
Click to expand...
The Dac doesn't have an optical in, only optical out.
 
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