Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[HarmonicTHD]

I posted many times that pre out did not really clip at 1.4 Vrms and I think I know the reason why people keep saying that it did. So just for my curiosity, can you tell me where did you see that it clip at 1.4 V? Would it be from the following graph:

Amir did it for the AVR-X6700H, but only in preamp mode. When not in preamp mode, you should be able to get similar output voltage, but at much lower SINAD. The AVR-X4700H likely have basically the same preamp/DAC circuitry and parts (based on the similarity I have seen between the X4500H and X6500H. So I think the X4700H may have basically the same preamp/DAC circuitry and parts as the X6700H too, fewer channels obviously. If so, I would expect the X4700H to do at least 3 V, likely 4 V, before clipping.

Thanks Peng. Can confirm. I recently measured (0dBS input 100Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz and pink noise) the output of my X3700 in preamp only mode in order to dial in the optimum gain of the connected poweramps. It is more than 2V indeed, I remember seeing at least 3.5VRMS. Sorry I didn’t record the measurements at the time so I would be able to be more precise.

Addition (edited several hours after initial post):
So gentlemen. It somehow bugged me, that I didnt record my measurements from way back and so I got my equipment out and redid the measurements - here we go (spoiler - it pretty much confirms the graphs from above):

Denon X3700, full pre-amp mode, 0dBS 1kHz Sine Wave at 44kHz, streamed via NAS/UpNP into X3700, output unloaded, meaning only multi-meter hooked up (yes my multimeter can measure 1kHz and up - also confirmed by oscilloscope), only right channel, Audyssey on.

Result :
Volume knob set to:
-20db = ca. 0.4VRMS
0dB = ca. 4VRMS.

( I keep my volume settings in dB not on a scale of 0 to 100 - see Denon menu to change)

 

[Sonic icons]

I posted many times that pre out did not really clip at 1.4 Vrms and I think I know the reason why people keep saying that it did. So just for my curiosity, can you tell me where did you see that it clip at 1.4 V? Would it be from the following graph:

Yes, from that graph and the accompanying commentary by amirm:

(amirm said)

As you see, the best performance is around 1.1 volts which produces over 100 dB SINAD (dashboard uses 2 volt output so gets lower SINAD). With the amp turned on, the highest you can go is 1.4 volts before clipping occurs and performance drops precipitously. So make sure to look up the specifications for your external amplifier to see what its "sensitivity" is that generates its maximum power. If it is below 1.4 volts, then you are good.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Yes, from that graph and the accompanying commentary by amirm:

It doesn’t clip at 1.4 in full preamp mode - see the green curve in the x6700 chart , which goes to around 4V (which I also just confirmed - see my post above for the x3700). Or the red curve in the x4700 chart, but Amir stopped the measurements at 2V.

Yes it does clip at 1.4 if the internal power amps are used (preamp off).

 

[Sonic icons]

It doesn’t clip at 1.4 in full preamp mode - see the green curve in the x6700 chart , which goes to around 4V (which I also just confirmed - see my post above for the x3700). Or the red curve in the x4700 chart, but Amir stopped the measurements at 2V.

Yes it does clip at 1.4 if the internal power amps are used (preamp off).

I don't have a Denon X4700, I have an X4300. Very likely the same behavior of pre-out clipping (or at least SINAD getting a lot worse) above 1.4 V rms happens in many generations of Denon AVRs before the Xn700 (model year 2020) generation. But those earlier generations don't have a "preamp mode" where all the pre-outs are disconnected from the internal power amps. If you're getting a external power amp for use with one of those earlier Denon AVRs, it therefore seems advisable to choose a power amp with an input sensitivity not much higher than 1.4 V. (For example the Monoprice Monolith class AB amplifiers have input sensitivity of 1.6 V for full rated power at 8 ohms - this doesn't apply to the class D Monoliths.)

I've read that in the X4300, the internal amps that are normally front left and right can be re-assigned to a different channel. Then the front left and right pre-outs are operating in "preamp mode", and could be connected to a two-channel external amp with a much higher input sensitivity than 1.4 V (lower gain). But the other pre-outs are still connected to internal power amps.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I don't have a Denon X4700, I have an X4300. Very likely the same behavior of pre-out clipping (or at least SINAD getting a lot worse) above 1.4 V rms happens in many generations of Denon AVRs before the Xn700 (model year 2020) generation. But those earlier generations don't have a "preamp mode" where all the pre-outs are disconnected from the internal power amps. If you're getting a external power amp for use with one of those earlier Denon AVRs, it therefore seems advisable to choose a power amp with an input sensitivity not much higher than 1.4 V. (For example the Monoprice Monolith class AB amplifiers have input sensitivity of 1.6 V for full rated power at 8 ohms - this doesn't apply to the class D Monoliths.)

I've read that in the X4300, the internal amps that are normally front left and right can be re-assigned to a different channel. Then the front left and right pre-outs are operating in "preamp mode", and could be connected to a two-channel external amp with a much higher input sensitivity than 1.4 V (lower gain). But the other pre-outs are still connected to internal power amps.

Correct. I run the X3700 in preamp only mode and have power amps for all the 5 channels connected so I can get the higher voltage output of up to 4V at 92 Sinad and can keep the gain of the poweramps at only 20dB to take advantage of lower noise in the poweramp section. For my actual listing levels this gets me on average not more then 0.4V which is a bit below the Sinad sweetspot of 1.4V at 101dB Sinad but with over 20dB SPL of headroom.

 

[peng]

Yes, from that graph and the accompanying commentary by amirm:

When Amir said "clip" I think he likely meant the power amp clipped, not the preamp. You can ask him directly. If he does mean the preamp clipped at 1.4 V then I would disagree with him because that would make no sense, and in that case you can say the Marantz AV7705 and all Marantz AVRs (except the SR8015) would clip too at 1.4 -1.5 V. Other reviewers who have done a lot of bench measurements, such as Gene and John Atkinson consider clipping as when THD exceeds 1%, or 0.1% if they wanted to set a higher bar for certain gear, such as preamps.

Case in point, even the AVR-X3300W did not clip until it reached about 4 V.

Take a look of Gene's comments:

Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X networking AV receiver features the latest in HD audio and video processing, music streaming and offers future expandability with solid preamp outputs.

www.audioholics.com

Denon AVR-X3300W Preamplifier Measurements

One thing I really love about Denon receivers is they NEVER skimp on their preamp out circuits. Like past models, the AVR-X3300W had an ample amount of drive. I measured a whopping 4.5Vrms unclipped output, which is more than double the voltage needed to make virtually any amplifier reach full rated power. Yamaha please pay attention and step your game up particularly with your AV receivers in this price range that clip above 1.6Vrms. A preamp output of less than 2Vrms is unacceptable in my book.

 

[peng]

Yes it does clip at 1.4 if the internal power amps are used (preamp off).

Technically speaking, I wouldn't call it "clip" because even at 2 V, SINAD only dropped to almost 76 dB, or about 0.0164% It is true that from the curve, distortions started to rise quickly, but it was far from the clipping point.

Wiki def: "Clipping is a form of distortion that limits a signal once it exceeds a threshold." In this case, 1.4 V or even 2 V is hardly the threshold.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Technically speaking, I wouldn't call it "clip" because even at 2 V, SINAD only dropped to almost 76 dB, or about 0.0164% It is true that from the curve, distortions started to rise quickly, but it was far from the clipping point.

Wiki def: "Clipping is a form of distortion that limits a signal once it exceeds a threshold." In this case, 1.4 V or even 2 V is hardly the threshold.

Fair enough depends a bit on how one defines clipping eg 1%distortion, however personally I would not run the amp with power amps on and accept the 20dB drop in SINAD to 75ish for the preouts. So either run it in preamp only with SINAD in the 90ties all the way to 4V. Or don’t use the preamps with the internal power amps at 5W also with SINAD in the 90ties. Or simply don’t drive it past 1.4V preout in mixed mode and get external power amps with more than 26dB of gain. But to each it’s own.

 

[demoncamber]

So while trying to make sense of all the data here, is it known what the max level I can set the AVR preouts to before it clips? (Is it something like don't go over 0db level or something like that?)

I have an older RMB 1066 Rotel 6 channel amp, and I'm trying to balance the trims on the Rotel along with the AVR properly.

I do have an SMD clip detector for my car audio stuff which will tell me exactly when each clip, but was just curious if anyone knew before I went and pulled everything apart.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

So while trying to make sense of all the data here, is it known what the max level I can set the AVR preouts to before it clips? (Is it something like don't go over 0db level or something like that?)

I have an older RMB 1066 Rotel 6 channel amp, and I'm trying to balance the trims on the Rotel along with the AVR properly.

I do have an SMD clip detector for my car audio stuff which will tell me exactly when each clip, but was just curious if anyone knew before I went and pulled everything apart.

Yes. Volume set to 0dB gives about 4VRMS at the preouts, but in pre-amp mode only.

See
Post in thread 'Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...r-x4700-avr-review-updated.14493/post-1170178

 

[demoncamber]

Yes. Volume set to 0dB gives about 4VRMS at the preouts, but in pre-amp mode only.

See
Post in thread 'Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...r-x4700-avr-review-updated.14493/post-1170178

Is this with speaker trim levels at 0db as well or just the volume knob?

 

[AdamG]

Yes. Volume set to 0dB gives about 4VRMS at the preouts, but in pre-amp mode only.

See
Post in thread 'Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...r-x4700-avr-review-updated.14493/post-1170178

Yes but….. I hate but’s, but IIRC, you must be careful about setting any individual channel Trims in the plus Range (+3) example. Take note of the highest + channel trim setting and subtract that from 0dB as your max unclipped Master Volume setting. Otherwise you could conceivably drive any + trimmed channels into clipping. I have not read this entire 105 page thread. So if this has already been mentioned/discussed please disregard this post.

 

[AdamG]

Is this with speaker trim levels at 0db as well or just the volume knob?

See above post.


P.S. Additionaly, if using Audyssey EQ you also should consider this as well. I quoted Chris Kyriakakis of Audyeesy below:

“Chris Kyriakakis: The MultEQ algorithms can be set to apply any desirable amount of boost or cut depending on the application. For practical considerations in AVR systems, the filters are set to +9 dB max boost and –20 dB max cut.”

Meaning any individual channel may be boosted @ +9db with Audyeesy EQ engaged. Most AVR’s have a Volume limiter of (-10 dB) you can set in the Audio Menu, then Volume section. You can set max Master Volume to -10dB as a precaution.

Above Quote Source: https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/audyssey-room-eq-interview

 

[demoncamber]

Ah yes good to know, as you can see my two surrounds running off my Rotel amp are much higher after calibration with one at +3db

I do have my AVR max vol limited to 60 though because I don't go over that, so I guess I'm ok.
My Rotel amp does have individual trim dials for each channel, but I didn't want to turn them to max, for safety.

See above post.


P.S. Additionaly, if using Audyssey EQ you also should consider this as well. I quoted Chris Kyriakakis of Audyeesy below:

“Chris Kyriakakis: The MultEQ algorithms can be set to apply any desirable amount of boost or cut depending on the application. For practical considerations in AVR systems, the filters are set to +9 dB max boost and –20 dB max cut.”

Meaning any individual channel may be boosted @ +9db with Audyeesy EQ engaged. Most AVR’s have a Volume limiter of (-10 dB) you can set in the Audio Menu, then Volume section. You can set max Master Volume to -10dB as a precaution.

Above Quote Source: https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/audyssey-room-eq-interview

Ah yes good to know,

 

[mgood]

Having owned this AVR for a month now, and having spent a lot of time fiddling with it, I will start chiming in with some things I have learned in small bites.

The topic for this bite is, Saving a Preset Saves All or Almost All the Speakers Configuration Settings, Including Audyssey Settings. This is a very handy feature, because it allows you to create a preset for TV / video streaming / movies and another preset for music playback--each with potentially completely different settings. Each preset contains virtually all of the settings in the Speakers configuration, including Amp Assign, Speaker Configuration, Distances, Levels, Crossovers, Bass, 2 Channel Playback, etc. and a set of related Audyssey settings.

Random stream of consciousness follows. So sorry for the lack of organization...

I previously showed the procedure for turning off the front amps, while using the remaining amps for the center and surrounds. My front speakers are driven by an external Peachtree Nova 150 in Home Theater Bypass mode. This is all saved into Preset 1: my video preset.

Yesterday, a miracle happened, and I had the house to myself for several hours. I ran Audyssey again with 6 mic positions right around the MLP to optimize for music playback. The AVR was configured in Preamp mode, and only the front pair and subwoofer preamp outputs were active. I set everything to my liking in the MultiEQ app and saved the configuration to Preset 2. This is now my music preset. It allows me to run the AVR in its cleanest [and coolest] configuration and take advantage of its multitude of inputs, bass management features, and Audyssey room correction.

Even though I have better measuring DACs available, I prefer the features of the AVR enough, that I am willing to accept its middling performance compared with SOTA. Honestly, I think its pipelines are clean enough in preamp mode, that its flaws are not audible. I can't say I can tell the difference, anyway.

To change presets using the [terrible] Denon remote, press the Options button, scroll down to Speaker Preset, and select Preset 1 or Preset 2. You cannot make this automatic per input in a straightforward way, but you can save all the settings to a Quick Select button, which you then have to remember to press after selecting your input. After consulting the [terrible] manual, I figured out how to program a Quick Select button/command for BRD/DVD, Roku, Heos, and Digital Optical 1 inputs.

Unfortunately, I was not able to program my universal remote to associate a preset with an activity. The only available preset commands are PresetNext and PresetPrev, which do not comply with non-linear workflows. I was able to program the universal remote to send the Quick Select commands for each activity, so each activity has one of the 4 Quick Select buttons I programmed sent after powering everything on. It is klugey, but it works.

Preset 1 - Video Sources

View attachment 92774

View attachment 92775

View attachment 92777

View attachment 92779

View attachment 92781
Etc.

Preset 2 - Music Sources

View attachment 92768

View attachment 92769

View attachment 92770

View attachment 92771

View attachment 92772
Etc.

It is worth noting that Audyssey found the same speaker distances (to the inch) and levels (to the half dB) in 2 different measuring sessions weeks apart. The video session included 8 measurements spread all across the sofa. The audio session included 6 measurements spread around the center seat on the sofa. And, they match perfectly.

Hi Steve,

How do you connect your Peachtree Nova to your sub(s) when listening to music? I find myself tempted to add a 2ch integrated amp to my X4500, but I haven't been able to figure out how to connect the sub to the integrated amp. My front speakers sound really anemic without the subwoofer.

Thanks,
Mattias

 

[Steve Dallas]

Hi Steve,

How do you connect your Peachtree Nova to your sub(s) when listening to music? I find myself tempted to add a 2ch integrated amp to my X4500, but I haven't been able to figure out how to connect the sub to the integrated amp. My front speakers sound really anemic without the subwoofer.

Thanks,
Mattias

I don't. While I like subs, I sometimes prefer to listen just to a stereo pair. That pathway is: laptop running Dirac Live Standalone -> Schiit Modius -> Peachtree Nova 300 -> Revel F206.

 

[mgood]

I don't. While I like subs, I sometimes prefer to listen just to a stereo pair. That pathway is: laptop running Dirac Live Standalone -> Schiit Modius -> Peachtree Nova 300 -> Revel F206.

I see. If you were to connect a sub, how would you go about it? Is it possible to connect the 2ch integrated to the sub via pre-out and my Denon AVR through sub out for the LFE track? Or would the sub become totally confused being connected to two amps?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I see. If you were to connect a sub, how would you go about it? Is it possible to connect the 2ch integrated to the sub via pre-out and my Denon AVR through sub out for the LFE track? Or would the sub become totally confused being connected to two amps?

Maybe I can chime in.

I run pre-amp mode all the time. All speakers (LCRSUR, except subs) have separate power amps. The two subs are active subs and connect to LFE1 and LFE2 respectively. That gives you all the options you describe.

Why would you connect a sub to a separate amp? Or are you talking about passive subs?

If you want to completely bypass the AVR than this a completely different approach. You need some sort of physical switch before the power amp and possibly the subs.

Or maybe I don’t understand completely what it is exactly you want to do.

 

[Steve Dallas]

I see. If you were to connect a sub, how would you go about it? Is it possible to connect the 2ch integrated to the sub via pre-out and my Denon AVR through sub out for the LFE track? Or would the sub become totally confused being connected to two amps?

When I want to listen to music with the subs, I use the AVR as the source (HEOS) and DAC in stereo preamp mode. Honestly, I cannot hear the difference between the AVR's DAC and the Modius. The differences I hear are the presence of the subs and the difference between Audyssey and Dirac.

I use the system both ways. But sometimes I just want to hear the stereo pair. I have a small room and listen at ~80dB average. In that environment, my towers have an F3 of ~33Hz, and there is plenty of visceral impact using my custom Dirac target. Bass distortion is not audible to me at those levels. The subs give me a little more impact and an extra 23Hz of bass extension (10 to 33Hz). There is not much content below 40Hz in most of the music I like.

This is my current setup:

Here are my in-room measurements with DRC up to ~1000Hz:

 

[Steve Dallas]

Maybe I can chime in.

I run pre-amp mode all the time. All speakers (LCRSUR, except subs) have separate power amps. The two subs are active subs and connect to LFE1 and LFE2 respectively. That gives you all the options you describe.

Why would you connect a sub to a separate amp? Or are you talking about passive subs?

If you want to completely bypass the AVR than this a completely different approach. You need some sort of physical switch before the power amp and possibly the subs.

Or maybe I don’t understand completely what it is exactly you want to do.

Many integrated amps have sub outs. Some of them have built-in crossovers. Mine has at least one sub out, but does not have a crossover. Some people with dual use systems find ways to leverage those outputs.

In my case, I need both subs to smooth out the bass FR curve in my room. Otherwise, I could connect one to the AVR and one to the amp and run one sub in each scenario.